Author Topic: Problem with 1875 Uberti Remington "Outlaw" Revolver  (Read 2558 times)

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Taurian

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Problem with 1875 Uberti Remington "Outlaw" Revolver
« on: September 27, 2015, 11:38:56 AM »
My second trip to the range revealed a flaw with the revolver. With the light loads of the 'Cowboy Grade’ 250-grain loads from PROGRADE, there seemed to be no problem that I could detect.  However, I was shooting a hotter 250-grain ‘Cowboy’ load from Georgia Arms (725 fps) on the second trip and this is when the problem reared its ugly head. 

When attempting to unload the second round fired, the cylinder would bind to the point that it had to be removed.  I looked closely at the base of the ammunition being fired and the recoil shield of the revolver.  There was a step that was quite dominant in the machining of the frame.  The step was dominant enough to catch my fingernail, and it seemed, dominant enough to catch the rim or primer of an expended shell casing.

[attachimg=1]

The frame was obviously machined this way by the manufacturer. In essence, the frame's recoil shield is thicker behind the cartridge to be fired than in other places. I really don't mind this at all, as this area takes the brunt of the recoiling shell casing and thicker is better. However, a graduated thickness is better than a step thickness.

Now, I could either send the revolver back for replacement/repair or attempt to rectify the situation myself.  I decided on the latter.  I needed to bevel the edge enough to allow a fired case and primer to slide over the step rather than coming to an abrupt stop. 

[attachimg=2]

A jewelers flat file and a piece of extremely fine Emery cloth came into play.  I lightly filed the offending step at about a 45-degree angle until the cylinder would not bind on any of the expended shells.  This meant filing and fitting often. I did not want to remove too much metal, but just enough metal where I could not feel my fingernail catching on the step and cylinder drag could not be felt when the cylinder was rotated with expended cases.  Once the step felt smooth, the very fine piece of Emory cloth was placed on the file and the step rubbed to remove file marks and lightly polish the surface of the now beveled edge.  I finally reached a point where no binding was detected as the cylinder was rotated with once fired casings.  At this point, it was time to stop any further filing and go for polishing only.

Sometimes you just have to go for it and hope for the best.
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oldranger53

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Re: Problem with 1875 Uberti Remington "Outlaw" Revolver
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2015, 03:17:39 PM »
My second trip to the range revealed a flaw with the revolver. With the light loads of the 'Cowboy Grade’ 250-grain loads from PROGRADE, there seemed to be no problem that I could detect.  However, I was shooting a hotter 250-grain ‘Cowboy’ load from Georgia Arms (725 fps) on the second trip and this is when the problem reared its ugly head. 

When attempting to unload the second round fired, the cylinder would bind to the point that it had to be removed.  I looked closely at the base of the ammunition being fired and the recoil shield of the revolver.  There was a step that was quite dominant in the machining of the frame.  The step was dominant enough to catch my fingernail, and it seemed, dominant enough to catch the rim or primer of an expended shell casing.

[attachimg=1]

The frame was obviously machined this way by the manufacturer. In essence, the frame's recoil shield is thicker behind the cartridge to be fired than in other places. I really don't mind this at all, as this area takes the brunt of the recoiling shell casing and thicker is better. However, a graduated thickness is better than a step thickness.

Now, I could either send the revolver back for replacement/repair or attempt to rectify the situation myself.  I decided on the latter.  I needed to bevel the edge enough to allow a fired case and primer to slide over the step rather than coming to an abrupt stop. 

[attachimg=2]

A jewelers flat file and a piece of extremely fine Emery cloth came into play.  I lightly filed the offending step at about a 45-degree angle until the cylinder would not bind on any of the expended shells.  This meant filing and fitting often. I did not want to remove too much metal, but just enough metal where I could not feel my fingernail catching on the step and cylinder drag could not be felt when the cylinder was rotated with expended cases.  Once the step felt smooth, the very fine piece of Emory cloth was placed on the file and the step rubbed to remove file marks and lightly polish the surface of the now beveled edge.  I finally reached a point where no binding was detected as the cylinder was rotated with once fired casings.  At this point, it was time to stop any further filing and go for polishing only.

Sometimes you just have to go for it and hope for the best.
Wow.
Great job on the images!

<Sent from phone. Typos possible.>

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M1911A1

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Re: Problem with 1875 Uberti Remington "Outlaw" Revolver
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2015, 04:52:02 PM »
I suggest that you also check the cylinder's end-shake. If you try to move the cylinder fore-and-aft, there should be very little movement...maybe around five thousandths.
If you are experiencing primers backing out of their cases upon being fired, it suggests excessive end-shake to me. The clearance at the recoil shield, right at the firing pin aperture, should be pretty small, so that neither primer nor entire fired case can move back at all.
You can check end-shake by inserting a feeler gauge between the barrel's forcing cone and the cylinder's front surface, while the gun is at full cock. Let the feeler gauge which fits the gap press the cylinder back against the recoil shield.

There is irony here.
The Remington revolver was commercially unsuccessful primarily because its critical dimensions were not properly controlled at the factory. Thus, I believe, the pistols were all relatively inaccurate.
In the case of "the real thing," if I remember correctly, the uncontrolled dimensions were in the relationship between the chambers' bores and the barrel's bore. The cylinder bore was smaller than the barrel's, so the bullets wobbled.
(In the Colt's product, it was the other way 'round: Chamber larger than barrel.)
Steve,
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jtg452

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Re: Problem with 1875 Uberti Remington "Outlaw" Revolver
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2015, 05:49:18 PM »
The cylinder bore was smaller than the barrel's, so the bullets wobbled.
(In the Colt's product, it was the other way 'round: Chamber larger than barrel.)

Ruger made a run of .45Colt Blackhawks in the '90's that had .451" bores and .450" throats on the chambers, so it ain't just a 19th Century issue. 

Those barrels leaded badly and were very inaccurate after those .452" lead bullets got squeezed down to .450" before hitting the forcing cone until someone got around to measuring the throats on the chambers and discovered what was causing it.  Most of the CAS shooters I know that were impacted by the snafu just carried their guns to a 'smith and had him open the throats up a couple thousandths.

Colt messed around with bore diameters a lot in the 19th Century.  Sometimes, I think that they were just too cheap to replace worn out equipment.  Early .41 Long Colt guns that I've seen have had bores that were all over the place but most ran oversized.  Some went all the way up to .409" with .406" bores being pretty common.  That's not a major problem if you are shooting the original heel base bullet version of .41LC.  If you are shooting the 'modernized' version, those .396" bullets tend to not grab onto much rifling.  Of course, Colt's answer to the issue was to use .401" 38WCF barrels on the later .41LC guns.  Maybe the lead bullet will 'bump up' .005" but I wouldn't bet on it.  It's a shame, too.  The .41LC can be very accurate- once you figure out what your bore actually measures and match the bullet diameter to it.

Taurian

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Re: Problem with 1875 Uberti Remington "Outlaw" Revolver
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2015, 11:29:56 PM »
On this version of the revolver, there is absolutely no cylinder end play.  Watching the cylinder as it rotates, I can see that the increased thickness in the firing pin area, as compared to the lower part of the frame, actually forces the case of the cartridge into the cylinders. In doing so, there is very little case movement even under recoil.

The breech of the barrel (the forcing cone) is slightly tapered to the actual bore, unlike some barrels that I have seen that are straight cut.  That means that rather than shaving lead, the bullet is fed into a 'cone' prior to entering the actual barrel bore.  I can say that this revolver is highly accurate and fired rounds will take out the x-ring at 15-yards if I do my part.  With the ammunition that I was using, a 3-inch group while shooting one-handed "duelist' style is easy to obtain.  The sights are dead-on.

The binding issue, at the points denoted in the images, was the only thing that bothered me.  As I stated before, there is absolutely no cylinder free play and timing is spot on. The cylinder gap is less than .004-inch.  This revolver, albeit a reproduction, has tighter tolerances than many of the newer revolvers that I have.

I'll be firing a little hotter load the next trip out. They are rated at 760 fps and should be good rounds to test my fix. For some reason, this revolver likes 250-grain LRNFN bullets running at 725 fps and have given me (so far) the best accuracy.
The fact that the GOVERNMENT would even consider removing the natural right to bear arms is the very reason why the 2nd Amendment was written.