Author Topic: Secure That Firearm  (Read 3878 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

commonground

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2441
  • Two Beautiful Girls
  • Location: South Central Pennsylvania
Secure That Firearm
« on: November 23, 2012, 05:12:00 AM »
When you take on the responsibility of carrying a gun, you also take on the responsibility of keeping it out of the wrong hands.  There are far too many stories of accidents because a gun was not secure.

http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=32237
“do not go to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things at stupid times.” - Gabe Suarez

oldranger53

  • The Ranger Creed-words to live by
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3739
  • 2/503d INF ABN 173d BDE ABN
    • Temporary website home with basic information.
Re: Secure That Firearm
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2012, 02:27:23 PM »
To that I say "ABSOLUTELY!"
Few things in life spell "T-R-A-G-E-D-Y" like having your own weapon fall into the hands of a hostile (or ignorant) adversary!
The last thing I'd ever want to see is the business end of my own gun barrel(s).
Do whatever you have to do in order to keep this from ever happening!  You'll be glad you did if you do. (!!!!!!)
Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.

crzyjarmans

  • Fewer words carry a great weight than someone who never stops talking
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1934
  • Location: Las Vegas,NV
Re: Secure That Firearm
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2012, 02:47:12 PM »
This is why I have a very strick policy when it comes to my firearm, Many years ago, I had a 357 revolver, Back before they started putting safeties on them, A friend of mine,( I was unaware of his knowledge of firearms)was holding my firearm, while i was driving down the road, for some reason he pulled the trigger, Luckly no one was injured, After I retreived my firearm, I asked him why he did that, and he said, he thought I had the safety on, and didnt relize that it was loaded, At the moment I decided that I would never allow anyone, reguardless of there knowledge of firearm ever be allowed to handle one of my firearm before I safety the firearm first, Witch include, Removal of the mag, locking open the barrel, Vissibly inspecting that there is no round in the firearm, And then and only then, Maybe I'll let you hold it 
Shawn, Stay armed, Stay safe

SARGeek

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1622
  • Location: Colorado
Re: Secure That Firearm
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2012, 08:50:25 PM »
I agree. You don't have a power saw or drill to a kindergartener without close supervision. Why would you do it with any other tool, including weapons?

Store them safely, unload them when they are not going to be used, and lock them up out of sight to protect the kiddos and the stupidly curious from hurting themselves. Anti-theft measures are also important. I won't say that a thief could never get at locked up guns but they should have to work pretty hard at it.
SARGeek

Robert Harvey

  • Rharvey
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4981
    • The computer guy
Re: Secure That Firearm
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2012, 09:51:24 PM »
It is wise to have your firearm secured on you, most the time.
if not on you make sure it is secured at all times.
be a responsible person.
Time will tell.

GTG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2592
Re: Secure That Firearm
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2012, 09:34:25 AM »
I agree, but:

They are trying to make a Law in this state, to be a misdemeanour’s, or (with injury) felony if a child gets your gun. There are a number of cases where girls 11 or twelve have prevented possible injury to themselves preventing Burglars. Does that take their ability for Defence off the table?
At what age should they Legally have the availability to use a firearm for Defence without YOU being prosecuted?
'The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer.' Henry Kissinger

"A Nation Of Sheep Will Beget A Government Of Wolves" Edward D Murrow

"Either We Are A Country Of Laws With A Constitution, Or We Are A Banana Republic"

Robert Harvey

  • Rharvey
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4981
    • The computer guy
Re: Secure That Firearm
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2012, 11:48:23 AM »
I agree, but:

They are trying to make a Law in this state, to be a misdemeanour’s, or (with injury) felony if a child gets your gun. There are a number of cases where girls 11 or twelve have prevented possible injury to themselves preventing Burglars. Does that take their ability for Defence off the table?
At what age should they Legally have the availability to use a firearm for Defence without YOU being prosecuted?

which state?
Time will tell.

SARGeek

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1622
  • Location: Colorado
Re: Secure That Firearm
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2012, 06:55:55 PM »
I don't agree with that GTG. Too many kids have saved themselves and others and too many adults are dangerous with a gun for age to be a determining factor. It should be in the judgement of the family.

I think you do agree that children small enough not to understand what they are dealing with (I'm talking preschoolers here) need to have guns, just like knives, chisels, and other pointy things, kept out of reach. But setting an arbitrary age is stupid and counter-productive. Bring the NRA Eddie Eagle program into schools instead.
SARGeek

GTG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2592
Re: Secure That Firearm
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2012, 05:50:41 AM »
WA
I agree SARGeek, I was a second grader when my Dad decided I was old enough for a pocket knife. He showed me how to use it safely.

Right now in WA they are trying to charge a gun owner with assault. His girl friends (thief) son stole a 45 from him. He brought it to (bullied at) school in a backpack. It went off injuring a female class mate. If it doesn't stick they have the proposed Law, all gun owners are responsible for lock down of guns from adolesents. (no particulars available yet)
'The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer.' Henry Kissinger

"A Nation Of Sheep Will Beget A Government Of Wolves" Edward D Murrow

"Either We Are A Country Of Laws With A Constitution, Or We Are A Banana Republic"

commonground

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2441
  • Two Beautiful Girls
  • Location: South Central Pennsylvania
Re: Secure That Firearm
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2012, 11:07:48 AM »
Chronological age should not be the major factor in determining the fitness of an individual to handle a firearm safely.  I taught my kids at age twelve (approximately) how to safely handle any firearm.  In between lessons, I would place a unloaded gun somewhere on the property and ask them to retrieve it.  I would always watch the retrieval and make sure that they handled it properly.  I also took them hunting and shooting and ensured that gun safety was the primary consideration.  Both were brought up with firearms close by but, I also watched the mental stability aspects of their development.  There were times when we were more guarded with the firearms because of the their emotional swings.  If I ever had any doubts about their stability the firearms security increased.  Just saying. 
“do not go to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things at stupid times.” - Gabe Suarez

oldranger53

  • The Ranger Creed-words to live by
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3739
  • 2/503d INF ABN 173d BDE ABN
    • Temporary website home with basic information.
Re: Secure That Firearm
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2012, 06:15:13 PM »
Hello and Merry Christmas to all.


I realize that times change, social climate fluctuates, and not everyone is born into a gun-toting family, etc...
Having said all that, here goes:


I got my first gun at age 7.  It was a Winchester single shot .22LR bolt action.  Later that year, someone in the family decided I needed my first shotgun.  It was a Savage single shot (external hammer), breach loading .410 (I hated it because I thought I was big enough for a 12 ga like the other guys in the family had.
Somewhere around 13-14, a sporterized .303 British rifle with detachable scope was added to my growing arsenal. 


Was I always responsible? No.
Sometimes I shot trees with them.  Not advisable, but no stray bullets ever brought grief because of the tree shootings.


I didn't like the scope on the .303.  It also had a very cool pop-up rear peep sight that was adjustable to around 1300yds, although I never attempted any long range shots like that.  I was better with the peep sight than with the scope, so guess which got used the most.


I'm thinking that 7yrs of age is very near the bottom of the acceptable age range for a first firearm, but then that's not exactly what this thread seems to be about.  And, times change.


Everybody wants someone else to be held responsible for one thing or another.


If a small child got hold of a kitchen knife and went to work on a neighbor's kid, would the parents who owned the kitchen knife be held accountable for allowing the wayward child access to the knife?  Would the parents have to be prosecuted because of what the child did with the knife?


Reminds me of a song: "Get Over It"
"Turn on the tube, and what do I see?
A whole lot of people saying 'DON'T BLAME ME'
They point their crooked little fingers at everybody else
Spend all their time feeling sorry for themselves
A victim of this, a victim of that
Your mamma's too thin, and your daddy's too fat
GET OVER IT"


Ok, back from the rabbit trail.


I heard a blimp on the news tonight that in Montana there's a special interest group asking the State LEO's for names and addresses of all CWP holders.  So far LEO's are refusing to release that information to the public.
Slippery Slope?  You betcha.
Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.

M1911A1

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3697
  • Location: I'm at the far upper left-hand corner of the US.
Re: Secure That Firearm
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2012, 08:50:55 PM »
...If a small child got hold of a kitchen knife and went to work on a neighbor's kid, would the parents who owned the kitchen knife be held accountable for allowing the wayward child access to the knife?  Would the parents have to be prosecuted because of what the child did with the knife?...

Short Answer: In most states, the answer to both of your questions would be "Yes."

Parents generally are responsible for the actions of their minor children and the damage that they do, as well as for the minor children's access to dangerous devices.
Parents are also responsible if the minor child injures himself as the result of presumable parental negligence, for instance by having allowed uncontrolled access to an attractive fruit-scented chemical that causes internal damage when ingested.

Parents are held responsible for the actions of their minor children as a "social good." That is, it is supposed to enforce the notion that one of all parents' jobs is teaching responsible and pro-social behavior to their children.
Steve,
retired leathersmith and practical shooter


"Qui desiderat pacem, præparet bellum."

oldranger53

  • The Ranger Creed-words to live by
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3739
  • 2/503d INF ABN 173d BDE ABN
    • Temporary website home with basic information.
Re: Secure That Firearm
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2013, 10:55:51 AM »
...If a small child got hold of a kitchen knife and went to work on a neighbor's kid, would the parents who owned the kitchen knife be held accountable for allowing the wayward child access to the knife?  Would the parents have to be prosecuted because of what the child did with the knife?...

Short Answer: In most states, the answer to both of your questions would be "Yes."

Parents generally are responsible for the actions of their minor children and the damage that they do, as well as for the minor children's access to dangerous devices.
Parents are also responsible if the minor child injures himself as the result of presumable parental negligence, for instance by having allowed uncontrolled access to an attractive fruit-scented chemical that causes internal damage when ingested.

Parents are held responsible for the actions of their minor children as a "social good." That is, it is supposed to enforce the notion that one of all parents' jobs is teaching responsible and pro-social behavior to their children.


I can see the logic in that, I suppose.
As with all other things, reason should override "the letter of the law".
I can think of a few examples to illustrate.
Suppose a young child searches for and gains access to daddy's gun - then goes outside and blasts away.
The cops come and arrest the daddy for being "negligent" with his firearms.
In this example, reasonable care was taken with the firearm to keep it out of sight and inaccessible, but junior finds it and gets hold of it anyway.
I don't personally know of this happening, just musing about possibilities.


It would seem reasonable to punish the child, and not the father in this case.  I doubt the law would see it that way.

If we secure our firearms so no one could possibly get hold of them without a combo or a key of some sort, then we also limit our own access to them, should the need arise.
Whenever grandkids are about to come to the house, I make sure that any firearms are in locked cabinets or other places that require a combo or a key for access.  That is good for grandkids at the house, but a committed burglar with an eye for stuff like that would likely have access to them in a short time.  For that reason, any extended absences require greater measures to secure the more sensitive items left in the house.
There's always some kind of trade-off between total security and owner access, IMO.
What sayest thou?   
Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.

M1911A1

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3697
  • Location: I'm at the far upper left-hand corner of the US.
Re: Secure That Firearm
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2013, 02:21:21 PM »
Short Answer: If the child in your hypothetical accessed the gun and used it, that would be direct evidence that the gun had not been properly secured, QED. The parent(s) would be liable for the child's actions.

Very generally speaking, the law does not hold the minor child responsible for his actions. The child's parents are under a legal requirement to maintain control over their child's actions. (There are, of course, exceptions to this concept.)
Steve,
retired leathersmith and practical shooter


"Qui desiderat pacem, præparet bellum."

mjpell

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
  • Location: central Indiana
Re: Secure That Firearm
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2013, 03:03:19 PM »
I personally do not hand over a firearm without dropping the mag, removing the chambered shell, and usually leaving slide in the back/open position.  I recently scolded a buddy for sweeping me with one i just handed to him that I just unloaded in front of him.   He told me to not worry since I was the one who just unloaded it.  I explained that that was not the point.  A gun is ALWAYS loaded. Period.   You always treat it that way.

As for the kids, I started my son at age 4 with a BB gun.  By 6 he was shooting a .22 single shot rifile, then a Walther P22 at 7.   All closely supervised, but by 12 I could feel confident in letting him reload and keep shooting the P22 at the range.   He's been reloading and shooting that little single shot since about 8 or 9 by himself.    All of this of course is with me supervising or at least there.  He never gets to do this alone or without a competant other adult.    Great stuff!   now that the weather is nice again, he's ready to go!



This is why I have a very strick policy when it comes to my firearm, Many years ago, I had a 357 revolver, Back before they started putting safeties on them, A friend of mine,( I was unaware of his knowledge of firearms)was holding my firearm, while i was driving down the road, for some reason he pulled the trigger, Luckly no one was injured, After I retreived my firearm, I asked him why he did that, and he said, he thought I had the safety on, and didnt relize that it was loaded, At the moment I decided that I would never allow anyone, reguardless of there knowledge of firearm ever be allowed to handle one of my firearm before I safety the firearm first, Witch include, Removal of the mag, locking open the barrel, Vissibly inspecting that there is no round in the firearm, And then and only then, Maybe I'll let you hold it