Author Topic: Point Shooting Sucks, and Handgun Knock Down Power Doesn't Exist?  (Read 2104 times)

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Taurian

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I placed this post in the Emergency Preparation section  because while training, that's what we actually do - prepare for an emergency in case that emergency involves fighting with a handgun.

Today at the range, I was continuing the break-in of the RIA 1911 MS Standard and was concentrating on using the sights more than point shooting. I am happy to say that the pistol is excellent with a "covered" sight picture. In other words, what the barrel covers, the bullet hits (if I do my part). At 10-yards, all head shots were within a 2" group.  All center mass shots were within the bull ring with two slightly cutting the edge.  Good enough for "combat" accuracy.

The videos bring out some important things about using sights and point shooting.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14K-qu6c1dA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14K-qu6c1dA</a>

or you can watch it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14K-qu6c1dA

And

Are proponents of point shooting ACTUALLY point shooting?
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MJ2tMwhQH4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MJ2tMwhQH4</a>
What most 21st Century Americans simply do not grasp is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights were not written to to give rights to the citizens of our then-new nation, but was instead written to tightly constrain the federal government.

CR Williams

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Re: Point Shooting Sucks, and Handgun Knock Down Power Doesn't Exist?
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2015, 01:48:27 PM »
Sigh...I'm not going to watch either one of them.

Yes, we're really point shooting by both my working definitions, that being pointing the gun and shooting points on the target. We're also point shooting by most of the other definitions I'm aware of.

Live with it.

Now I can turn this around: Are proponents of sighted shooting REALLY sighted shooting? Because Eno's Type 1 and 2 focus fall under some classifications of point shooting.
Shikan haramitsu dai ko myo.

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oldranger53

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Re: Point Shooting Sucks, and Handgun Knock Down Power Doesn't Exist?
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2015, 03:54:26 PM »
Sigh...I'm not going to watch either one of them.

<snip>

Me either.
Why?
Cuz I don't care what the "experts" call one thing or another.  It just doesn't matter when the SHTF. 
Only thing that matters is who's standing and who's being carried away.
That's it.

I look around, and look through...well...my own history.
I'm still standing.
Many MANY others who were with and around me are not standing.

I must have done a few things right, else I'd be one of those NOT standing.

Doesn't matter to me what it's called, or who agrees with me.
I'm here.  It worked then, and it will work if ever I'm called upon in the future to fight again.
I really doubt if the bad guys have gotten that much better than before.

Now I gotta get ready for an early morning trip to Bozeman Deaconess Hospital.  Youngest son is having a back operation at 0530 hrs in the morning. 
We have a 2 hour trip to get there...which means we gotta leave here by at least 0300hrs. 
That's my main concern right now.
God help any bad guys who make me fight some other stupid freaking battles between here and there...between now and then. 
Sheesh....Point shooting....sigh...UGH
Just hit what you need to hit...just do it.
Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.

M1911A1

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Re: Point Shooting Sucks, and Handgun Knock Down Power Doesn't Exist?
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2015, 04:14:32 PM »
The anti-"point-shooting" conclusion is valid, in part because "point shooting" has a known definition (sorry, Richard) that predates even me.
I caught myself thinking, "Gee...I used to be quick like that, too. Have I gotten that old?"

What confuses me, Taurian, is that the guy in the video looks nothing like your forum avatar.
I take it, therefore, that he is not you. Right?
Steve,
retired leathersmith and practical shooter


"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."

oldranger53

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Re: Point Shooting Sucks, and Handgun Knock Down Power Doesn't Exist?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2015, 04:58:03 AM »
Wow.
We're sitting in Bozeman Deaconess Hospital now...90+ miles away from home, and the sun hasn't even started to show itself yet.

I just read over my post from last night.

Sorry that I sounded so...obnoxious about the whole thing.
I think I get irritated about it because so many folks talk about this issue so often, and throw terms and jargon around as if everyone who is anyone should-oughtta know, etc, etc...

I'm all better now, so far.

I'll let ya know after the sun comes up.

<Sent from phone. Typos possible.>

Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.

CR Williams

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Re: Point Shooting Sucks, and Handgun Knock Down Power Doesn't Exist?
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2015, 05:05:46 AM »
The anti-"point-shooting" conclusion is valid, in part because "point shooting" has a known definition (sorry, Richard) that predates even me.

What is the definition you are aware of, Steve? Because there are incorrect definitions out there, some of which are deliberately made.
Shikan haramitsu dai ko myo.

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Taurian

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Re: Point Shooting Sucks, and Handgun Knock Down Power Doesn't Exist?
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2015, 05:17:53 AM »
Wow.
We're sitting in Bozeman Deaconess Hospital now...90+ miles away from home, and the sun hasn't even started to show itself yet.

I just read over my post from last night.

Sorry that I sounded so...obnoxious about the whole thing.
I think I get irritated about it because so many folks talk about this issue so often, and throw terms and jargon around as if everyone who is anyone should-oughtta know, etc, etc...

I'm all better now, so far.

I'll let ya know after the sun comes up.

<Sent from phone. Typos possible.>


I hope that the back surgery goes well.  Everything else is immaterial at this point.
What most 21st Century Americans simply do not grasp is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights were not written to to give rights to the citizens of our then-new nation, but was instead written to tightly constrain the federal government.

oldranger53

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Re: Point Shooting Sucks, and Handgun Knock Down Power Doesn't Exist?
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2015, 05:18:21 AM »
Roger that

<Sent from phone. Typos possible.>

Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.

Taurian

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Re: Point Shooting Sucks, and Handgun Knock Down Power Doesn't Exist?
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2015, 05:35:05 AM »
What confuses me, Taurian, is that the guy in the video looks nothing like your forum avatar.
I take it, therefore, that he is not you. Right?

He is much better looking. I have a face for radio.  I never was that fast. 

I believe, and correct me if I am wrong, Skeeter Skelton and Bill Jordan were advocates of "point" or "instinctive" shooting while Cooper advocated shooting with sights.
What most 21st Century Americans simply do not grasp is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights were not written to to give rights to the citizens of our then-new nation, but was instead written to tightly constrain the federal government.

CR Williams

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Re: Point Shooting Sucks, and Handgun Knock Down Power Doesn't Exist?
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2015, 07:22:37 AM »
What confuses me, Taurian, is that the guy in the video looks nothing like your forum avatar.
I take it, therefore, that he is not you. Right?

He is much better looking. I have a face for radio.  I never was that fast. 

I believe, and correct me if I am wrong, Skeeter Skelton and Bill Jordan were advocates of "point" or "instinctive" shooting while Cooper advocated shooting with sights.

Cooper was for point shooting before he was against it. In his book 'Fighting Handguns' (think that's the title) he has a whole chapter on it. He calls it 'pointer fire' in the book. In his Commentaries he also acknowledges that at close distances sights are not necessary.

Don't know about Skelton but Jordan was a practitioner, yes.
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flyover

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Re: Point Shooting Sucks, and Handgun Knock Down Power Doesn't Exist?
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2015, 07:58:32 AM »
oldranger53, my Christmas wish for you is that his surgery is successful and his recovery is swift.


Ooops! I was under the impression that oldranger53 was having back surgery, ran across his earlier post and came back to correct this one.

oldranger53

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Re: Point Shooting Sucks, and Handgun Knock Down Power Doesn't Exist?
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2015, 08:50:50 AM »
Thanks!
I almost wish it WERE me in the recovery room right now!

These kids (30 and 21 yrs of age) struggle so much with just the basic things of life!

But then, I doubt if he'd want to trade bodies with me...so I guess he'll just have to heal on his own.

It's excruciating to watch this young couple in their early stages of life together!

I guess being old isn't so bad after all!

<Sent from phone. Typos possible.>

Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.

Taurian

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Re: Point Shooting Sucks, and Handgun Knock Down Power Doesn't Exist?
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2015, 09:22:36 AM »
I heard an old saying a long time ago,"I once was where you are now, but you will never once be where I am now."

Folks our age have withstood the test of time, so to speak.  The test of time for our youth is still forthcoming.  I'm sure that your son will be fine; it seems that he has a good father.  We have but two jobs; guidance and knowing when to fade to the background after guidance is given, but yet still be available when they need us.
What most 21st Century Americans simply do not grasp is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights were not written to to give rights to the citizens of our then-new nation, but was instead written to tightly constrain the federal government.

M1911A1

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Re: Point Shooting Sucks, and Handgun Knock Down Power Doesn't Exist?
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2015, 02:25:48 PM »
1. Point Shooting: Didn't Fairbairn and a few of those other British-colonial police types, and Rex Applegate in the US, advocate unsighted, instinctive point shooting? I remember a couple of books about Shanghai-Police and OSS training and practice (no longer in my library) which advocated quick, waist-level, isosceles-style, short-range shooting. If my memory is correct (and I'm, for once, sure that it is), those techniques and the name date to the early 1930s (or even earlier), and that predates me by at least five years.

2. Wade: I apologize for not having paid attention to what you've been writing here. I got tied up in the original subject, and in a few end-of-year issues around here, so I was pretty self-involved. By now, I hope that you've been told that the surgery on your son went well, and that his recovery will be relatively easy. I wish you and your wife well, and also your son and his family. I hope, therefore, that you all will have a truly merry Christmas, and a really happy New Year!
Steve,
retired leathersmith and practical shooter


"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."

oldranger53

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Re: Point Shooting Sucks, and Handgun Knock Down Power Doesn't Exist?
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2015, 02:51:22 PM »
No problem!

We just got home a few minutes ago.

All went well, I think.  In a couple days he will know more.

I don't know exact details but a disc was protruding between bones in some way, and this operation fixed it.  I'm hoping this will rid the specter from his life.

Roads were 90% clear going and coming.

It was a good day, all in all.

We're back in our nest, snacking and prepping for whatever tomorrow brings!

Merry Christmas to you as well!  And to all brothers on GT!  Merry Christmas!

<Sent from phone. Typos possible.>

Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.

CR Williams

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Re: Point Shooting Sucks, and Handgun Knock Down Power Doesn't Exist?
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2015, 05:30:43 AM »
1. Point Shooting: Didn't Fairbairn and a few of those other British-colonial police types, and Rex Applegate in the US, advocate unsighted, instinctive point shooting? I remember a couple of books about Shanghai-Police and OSS training and practice (no longer in my library) which advocated quick, waist-level, isosceles-style, short-range shooting. If my memory is correct (and I'm, for once, sure that it is), those techniques and the name date to the early 1930s (or even earlier), and that predates me by at least five years.

'Shooting to Live' by Fairbairn and 'Kill or Get Killed' by Applegate to be exact. The belt-level position was called half-hip and seems to be where some get stuck about what point shooting is. The default position and preferred one is called point-shoulder in those systems and puts the pistol/revolver up just below eye-level in the vertical eye-line/sight line.

The preferred default in all point shooting systems modern and not that I am familiar with is eye level or near to it.
Shikan haramitsu dai ko myo.

In Shadow In Light - Studying and advancing the art and the science of the fight.

www.inshadowinlight.com