Author Topic: Hornaday Critical Duty .40cal  (Read 4212 times)

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oldranger53

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Hornaday Critical Duty .40cal
« on: November 26, 2014, 01:47:44 PM »
This morning I emailed Hornaday and asked how R&D arrived at 175gr as optimal bullet weight for Critical Duty flex tip rounds in .40S&W

This afternoon they emailed back and respectfully declined to share that info, stating it is proprietary, etc...and assuring me that they are convinced that is THE best weight for Critical Duty bullet expansion and penetration.

Good enough, but I'd still like to know WHY it's "best" for that bullet when most ballistics intel suggests that lighter bullets seem to be "better" overall.

Anyone care to fill me in?  I figure someone here on GT knows. 
Thanks in advance!




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Re: Hornaday Critical Duty .40cal
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2014, 03:05:21 PM »
...And some ballistics information seems to tell us that heavier bullets perform better!
What's a poor credulous shooter to do? Whom should we believe?
Indeed, it is a puzzlement!

I'm no ballistics expert, but I can always make an ignorance-based conjecture anyway.
To wit:
• There must be some, well, optimum balance point to be reached, between velocity and bullet mass (more familiarly referred to as "weight").
• The total of velocity and bullet mass, in terms of chamber pressure, must probably be considered a fixed point. The bullet requires a certain amount of remaining velocity, in order to reliably expand when it hits its, um, target. So that sets an upper limit upon the mass of the bullet.
• Conversely, the bullet presents a certain amount of mass, based upon its composition and shape (which is related to expansion, of course), so that sets the upper limit upon velocity.
• It probably requires a whole lot of experimentation, not to mention advanced mathematics, to arrive at just the right balance of bullet mass and velocity. The result may even be counter-intuitive, but that doesn't matter if the formula works effectively and consistently.

"Weight" is a static measurement. "Mass" is a kinetic measurement. A bullet sitting still in your scale's tray has weight, which is the effect of gravity; but ballistics involves moving objects, which, since they are affected by their movement, instead have mass.
A cast-iron safe, in a fixed orbit around the Earth, has no "weight." But if you approach it while taking a space walk, and venture to kick it hard, your broken foot will remind you that it has lots of "mass."
Steve,
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CR Williams

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Re: Hornaday Critical Duty .40cal
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2014, 05:15:14 PM »
Bullet weight is not as important as what I believe is called sectional density:

"Sectional density is the ratio of an object's mass to its cross-sectional area. It conveys how well an object's mass is distributed (by its shape) to overcome resistance. For illustration, a needle can penetrate a target medium with less force than a coin of the same mass."

Bullet design trumps weight or speed. Achieving optimal sectional density is part of that design. Adding weight or reducing weight would have changed the penetration and expansion characteristics of the round. They almost certainly tried both lower and higher weights before settling on this one.

There's always been a debate between light-fast and slow-heavy. But what really matters is the way the bullet is designed. Bad design, it doesn't matter what the weight or speed is.

As an aside, I like lighter weight rounds in .40 S&W because it makes felt recoil softer to me. I have run as light as 135gr in .40, but tend nowadays toward 165gr and 175gr.

You might be interested to know that Critical Duty in 9mm is 135gr, which is on the heavy side for norm, that being 115gr or 124gr.
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Taurian

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Re: Hornaday Critical Duty .40cal
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2014, 05:51:57 PM »
According to Hornady, the 40 S&W 175 gr FlexLock® Critical DUTY® travels at 1010 fps at the muzzle.

By comparison, the 357 Mag 135 gr Critical Duty®  travels at 1275 fps at the muzzle.

By comparison, again, the 45 Auto+P 220 gr FlexLock® Critical DUTY® floats out of the barrel at a mere 975 fps.

So to answer your question, I don't know  ;D

Not only do we have everything that Steve mentioned, there is also the rifling to consider. I have had 220-grain .45 acp ammunition keyhole at 15-yards. What the heck is that all about? Too much bullet and not enough propellent perhaps (they were range loads) or perhaps too short of a barrel, too long a barrel? What?

Throw in the mix the ballistic co-efficient of the bullet itself (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_coefficient#Ballistics)

The Hornady reloading Guide might lead you into some information. Knowing the approximate BC of the bullet and the velocity might lead you to an EWAG as to the propellent and charge used to obtain close to the same velocity.

Then you have secondary recoil from the escaping gas behind the bullet, which causes muzzle flash. What I surmise is that if the manufacturer used the same powder and charge to send a lighter bullet downrange, would that equate to the same amount of recoil as with a heavier bullet?

Which would lead me to ask, "What round was Officer Wilson using?"

What one does surmise if that a pistol cartridge does not always work as desired. You pay your quarter and you takes your chances.

With that said, I do have 45 Auto 185 gr FTX® Critical Defense® and 357 Mag 125 gr FTX® Critical Defense® and they seems like excellent rounds.

Bottom line is how they work for you and your firearm.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 11:01:57 AM by Taurian »
The fact that the GOVERNMENT would even consider removing the natural right to bear arms is the very reason why the 2nd Amendment was written.

oldranger53

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Re: Hornaday Critical Duty .40cal
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2014, 10:27:16 PM »
Thanks to all for the info and insights!

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Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.

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Re: Hornaday Critical Duty .40cal
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2014, 06:06:16 AM »
I have learned that I have not gained weight over the years; it has been an increase in the gravitational pull of the earth! ;D
The fact that the GOVERNMENT would even consider removing the natural right to bear arms is the very reason why the 2nd Amendment was written.

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Re: Hornaday Critical Duty .40cal
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2014, 11:03:29 AM »
Update: Officer Wilson had a Sig Sauer .40 caliber. Although the weight of recovered bullet(s) was not revealed in the autopsies, "The gunshot injury path, through the brain, is approximately 12 cm (4.72) in length." according to the first autopsy report).  Note: You can download .pdf version of the two autopsies here - http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2014/11/michael_brown_autopsy_report.html
The fact that the GOVERNMENT would even consider removing the natural right to bear arms is the very reason why the 2nd Amendment was written.

CR Williams

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Re: Hornaday Critical Duty .40cal
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2014, 03:27:35 PM »
Then you have secondary recoil from the escaping gas behind the bullet, which causes muzzle flash. What I surmise is that if the manufacturer used the same powder and charge to send a lighter bullet downrange, would that equate to the same amount of recoil as with a heavier bullet?

I have had 90gr 9mm rounds give me more subjective recoil than 115gr. 115gr +P+ kicks me back harder than 124gr +P. 180gr .40 S&W at the same chamber pressure hits me more than anything lighter.

All I know to do is put the round in the gun and shoot it. Charts and calculators aren't enough to tell me how the round will feel to me.
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zeke4351

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Re: Hornaday Critical Duty .40cal
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2015, 05:42:28 PM »
Our State Police carry the .40 S&W in Glock 35's. They use 155 Grain Speer Gold Dots. I don't care for Hornady as a carry ammo. It is a lower powered load that gets its penetration by lack of expansion. That is what it is designed to do. I have yet to hear of any LE agency using any caliber Hornady handgun ammo. I also have never seen any report of performance in actual shootings in the streets where Hornady was used. It does perform as they plan for it to I just want something full powered and full expanding.


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oldranger53

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Re: Hornaday Critical Duty .40cal
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2015, 10:24:52 PM »
Got myself a box of buffalo bore .40+P in 180 gr JHP the other day.
My intent is to set up a few tests where I can evaluate the critical duty 175 gr against the buffalo bore 180 gr +P.

When I see for myself "what's what" I'll commit to getting some bulk in one or the other.

At the moment, I'm leaning towards buffalo bore, but we shall see.

I'll report what I find out.

BTW, I'm open to suggestions regarding test mediums to compare the two rounds with.

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Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.

pop pop

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Re: Hornaday Critical Duty .40cal
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2015, 05:34:43 AM »
I built a wooden structure to align 6 1 gallon milk jugs in a straight line. I fill empty milk jugs with water. One must rinse the jugs after empting the milk or they will stink very bad when refilling with water later. I fire different rounds and calibers into the front jug and see how many jugs the bullet penetrates and most times you can recover the bullet and see how it expands. One can also cover the first jug with terrycloath or denim layers to see if the hollow point clogs when going through layers of cloath. Round nose bullets will exit the 6th jug and keep going. So will bullets that clog with cloath. Most hollow point bullets will stop within the first 2 to 4 jugs if they do what they suppose to do. I found the round I was carrying only penetrated 2 jugs so I changed to another with more potential.

Each jug is 8" across and you count how many jugs the bullet penetrates, then divide it by half and it will give you very close to what the bullet will do in gelitin or flesh. For instance if the bullet goes through 3 jugs and dents the 4th, you have penetrated 24". Divide that by 1/2 and you get approx 12" of actual possible penetration. 

I have been surprised at the results. We don't drink a large amount of milk so I save empty jugs all winter long then shoot in the spring. So far I have found that the Cor Bon DPX, in my 357 mag does the best job on expanding and penetration.

Many poo poos milk jug testing as opposed to gelitin, however I have no way to make the gleitin that is used in most testing, and it takes a lot. My method is fairly cheap except for the cost of the ammo. One must float a small loan to shoot much premium defensave ammo now-a-days. As you know most of it is 1.00 to 2.00 per round.

When you see one brand ammo as opposed to another you can tell which has more penetration potential, along with good expancion, in your favorite caliber. By putting 4 layers of dennim cloath over the end jug you can see if your bullet is prone to clog with cloath, which suppose to simulate a person wearing winter cloathing layers. The FBI sets a min of 12" penetration for ammo to be aceptible for them. Some brands will attain 12", some more, and some brands less. Like I said it was interesting and fun. Be careful because you may get wet. You also must hit the first jug pertty well centered on or the bullet will not go in a straight line. I set my Roscoe within about 5' from the first milk jug. I throw an old towl over the whole line of jugs to keep from getting sprayed by water. Sometimes, it does not always work.

Others have used wet newspapers as another medium. I am not real familure with this method of testing.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2015, 04:23:07 AM by pop pop »

Robert Harvey

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Re: Hornaday Critical Duty .40cal
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2015, 08:52:25 AM »
 ;)
Guns and ammo has a video also on howto make it.
http://www.gunsandammo.com/ammo/how-to-ballistic-gelatin/

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21MfoNGiVQU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21MfoNGiVQU</a>

Time will tell.

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Time will tell.

oldranger53

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Re: Hornaday Critical Duty .40cal
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2015, 03:51:10 PM »
Cool guys!
Thanks!

Sent from phone. Typos possible.

Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.

pop pop

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Re: Hornaday Critical Duty .40cal
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2015, 04:38:40 AM »
Good post Robert. Making gellitin is a lot of work and time consuming, but can be done. Thanks.

oldranger53

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Re: Hornaday Critical Duty .40cal
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2016, 02:02:37 PM »
I have learned that I have not gained weight over the years; it has been an increase in the gravitational pull of the earth! ;D
Ha!
Thanks!

Second (or third) time reading over these responses adds even more depth!

I eased up to the "CX4" issue with Suzi last night...like, ummm, "Honey? I have had my heart set on a certain type of carbine for several months now...and, well, I just don't think I'll find one at the gun show.  Therefore I will forego the gun show, and attend services with the family this morning."

And as a loving smile covers her face, she says something like, "What kind of carbine would your heart desire, my love?"

And as I float around today, I'm reading over all previous posts covering ballistics and bullet types, etc...

I have a great wife.
And I put that mildly.

I won't count these "chickens" before they're hatched, but there's plenty cackling in the hen house here today!
Plentiful eggs seem to be almost ready to count!

Anyway, I'm wondering about .40 ballistics from a 16.6" barrel?

Anyone know?

<Sent from phone. Typos possible.>

Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.

Taurian

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Re: Hornaday Critical Duty .40cal
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2016, 02:20:06 PM »
While I cannot find a specific answer to your question, the round will probably have an extra 100fps to 150 fps gain.

For example, the Remington 165-grain Golden Saber out of a 4" barrel is rated around 1150fps.  Out of a 16.6-inch barrel, you might be able to assume 1250fps to around 1300fps?
The fact that the GOVERNMENT would even consider removing the natural right to bear arms is the very reason why the 2nd Amendment was written.

oldranger53

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Re: Hornaday Critical Duty .40cal
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2016, 04:50:46 PM »
While I cannot find a specific answer to your question, the round will probably have an extra 100fps to 150 fps gain.

For example, the Remington 165-grain Golden Saber out of a 4" barrel is rated around 1150fps.  Out of a 16.6-inch barrel, you might be able to assume 1250fps to around 1300fps?
Roger that.

I was hoping for a greater gain...Say in the 300-500fps range of gain.
But I know a guy can only get so much from a given case, powder, bullet etc...

<Sent from phone. Typos possible.>

Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.

Taurian

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Re: Hornaday Critical Duty .40cal
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2016, 04:54:48 AM »
According to Hornady, the ammunition that you are referencing is rated at 1010fps (assuming a 4-inch barrel, which is not stated in their ballistics).

The Speer 170-grain Gold Dot Soft Point .357 magnum round is rated at 1180fps out of a 4" barrel.  Even if you get and extra, let's say a 150 fps gain out of a 16.6" barrel with your ammunition, that is still about 1160fps at the muzzle - only about 20fps short of the .357 magnum round of the same weight.  You get that gain with less perceived recoil that allows you faster follow-up shots.  The bad guy is not going to tell the difference between a .357 magnum round and your ammunition - but you will when shooting it.

With 17-round magazines chocked full with your ammunition in a CX4 Storm, and the same stuffed in a PX4, you have a great pistol/PCC combination.
The fact that the GOVERNMENT would even consider removing the natural right to bear arms is the very reason why the 2nd Amendment was written.

CR Williams

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Re: Hornaday Critical Duty .40cal
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2016, 05:45:12 AM »
Anyway, I'm wondering about .40 ballistics from a 16.6" barrel?

Anyone know?

<Sent from phone. Typos possible.>

It might not have the exact same round but you might can get an estimate by checking the Ballistics By The Inch site on teh interwebz.
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