Author Topic: Your input please - Armed encounter scenario  (Read 2706 times)

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Brademan

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Your input please - Armed encounter scenario
« on: December 29, 2012, 09:53:27 PM »
I'd like the help of the men and women who gather here.  I'm creating a scenario that I plan to post on the various forums and facebook pages where the discussion still rages on the benefit of being armed.  I have just finished running the scenario you will read, over 50 times to get the data down, and I am confident that the situation is firm.  I'd appreciate any input on wording or other factors that may make the post stronger.  I want to stick with the basic idea of the difference between being armed or not, in the event of a shooting situation.  Not interested in burying people with ballistic data or multiple what-ifs, at least any more than the basic premise here.  Thanks for looking at it and for any thoughts you can share.
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What do You Do?

You are at your usual workplace.  The people you work with are there and things are as usual.  Without warning, the door crashes open and an armed man enters and begins killing people in the room.  It doesn’t matter what kind of weapon he has; knife, bat, gun, sword, machete…he is armed and you freeze for a moment in shock.  He delivers blows and damage to the first two people within reach, before you can do anything.  But you must do something.  Now.

You are not armed in any way.  No one in the room is armed in any way.  It is a weapon-free zone and you felt safe.  The man is insane and homicidal and more people are being killed and wounded.  In desperation, you run towards the man to grab him, stop him….anything.  You are wounded or killed immediately.  The carnage continues.

The man is a criminal who cares nothing for laws or weapon free zones.  He is simply there to kill…for no reason.  He succeeds.

The time from the door bursting open to your death is 20 seconds.  I have personally tested this more than 50 times (in practice scenarios) and the number of people who could be hurt or killed in that brief time averages 19.  There is no time to call for help or police.  There is no time to grab any kind of weapon, because there are none in the area.  People die.  Notice that it does not matter what sort of weapon the man is carrying.  The element of surprise and the advantage of being armed is all that matters for a crazed person to do great damage. 

Unless there is an armed defender in the room.  That simple fact can stop the aggressor in as little as 3 seconds.  That is how long it takes to react to the threat and engage the aggressor.  This is also verified data.  Unarmed people must depend on skill and luck in a conflict.  Armed defenders depend on reaction and training.  The logic is inescapable. 
Brademan
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M1911A1

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Re: Your input please - Armed encounter scenario
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2012, 10:06:40 PM »
You just die?
You can't pick up a chair, and at least attempt to bash him with it? Or stick him with a ball-point pen?
You just run at him, bare handed?

No way, Brady. No way.

In an office, there would be a desktop-size three-hole punch. It makes a good basher.
There might be bottles, which, after being banged against an edge, could make good cutters.
There might be a coat-tree, a good basher and a good fencing tool.
You could knock things over, to impede his progress.

But, yes, you're correct that the best defense would be a quick offense that featured a gun.
Steve,
retired leathersmith and practical shooter


"Qui desiderat pacem, præparet bellum."

commonground

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Re: Your input please - Armed encounter scenario
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2012, 04:06:51 AM »
Brademan Quote: "In desperation, you run towards the man to grab him, stop him….anything.  You are wounded or killed immediately." 

If everyone in the room had the mindset to 'not go down without a fight' and all of you rushed him, the scenario may have had a different ending.  Sheep don't attack and we live amongst them.  The only alternative in this the situation is fight with whatever you can get your hands on and encourage others to join in.
“do not go to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things at stupid times.” - Gabe Suarez

Charles1951

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Re: Your input please - Armed encounter scenario
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2012, 05:53:02 AM »
I work in an weapon free office situation. I have considered my actions in such a scenario. My office scissors become my go-to "weapon" and the little can of pepper spray I carry I hope will allow me the milliseconds time I need to get close enough to use the scissors in devastating way to end the threat. Of course I would much prefer to be armed with my EDC handgun and I have argued my case to the HR director explaining that I have a license to carry and all NRA pistol training available but he stood firm on company policy saying the liability is too great to allow employees to be armed. And of course I think the liability is on the other side but it will not go anywhere.
Charles

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"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." - Thomas Jefferson

Brademan

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Re: Your input please - Armed encounter scenario
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2012, 07:00:37 AM »
Brademan Quote: "In desperation, you run towards the man to grab him, stop him….anything.  You are wounded or killed immediately." 

If everyone in the room had the mindset to 'not go down without a fight' and all of you rushed him, the scenario may have had a different ending.  Sheep don't attack and we live amongst them.  The only alternative in this the situation is fight with whatever you can get your hands on and encourage others to join in.


Quite right, and those here would no doubt do the same.  My goal in writing this as to give those of the 'unarmed is god' persuasion a third party look at the dynamics of an attack.  There is no time.  There is chaos.  People are being hurt.  And you have no weapon.  My argument is to show that being forearmed...with anything...is better than being dead.  I believe that even a liberal, gun-hater would have to see the logic of being able to protect themselves in this situation.  At least, that's my goal for the piece.  Thanks for the good point.
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Brademan

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Re: Your input please - Armed encounter scenario
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2012, 07:04:55 AM »
I work in an weapon free office situation. I have considered my actions in such a scenario. My office scissors become my go-to "weapon" and the little can of pepper spray I carry I hope will allow me the milliseconds time I need to get close enough to use the scissors in devastating way to end the threat. Of course I would much prefer to be armed with my EDC handgun and I have argued my case to the HR director explaining that I have a license to carry and all NRA pistol training available but he stood firm on company policy saying the liability is too great to allow employees to be armed. And of course I think the liability is on the other side but it will not go anywhere.
I agree, Charles and that argument will go on, with or without my piece. What I am envisioning is a description that can be read by each person and which would cause them to actually SEE the logic behind being able to defend themselves in such a situation.  We can all agree, here, that having a gun is the best option (and the appropriate training), but even access to a good stick would be better than nothing.  The minds of those who fear weapons of all kinds are the ones I hope to reach.
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commonground

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Re: Your input please - Armed encounter scenario
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2012, 08:19:30 AM »
Thank you Brademan for the thought provoking post.  We all need it and enjoy it from time to time.  If only one person opens their eyes to the situation, it was worth it.   
“do not go to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things at stupid times.” - Gabe Suarez

mustang125

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Your input please - Armed encounter scenario
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2012, 07:37:39 PM »
Kinda had something similar to this happen at our work only the BD was only threatening the employees. I was called to help. Our work place is a no gun zone but all they can do is fire me. I would rather be fired than dead.
The first thing to remember is our strongest  weapon is our mind. I convinced him he picked the wrong place. He was moved out of the building and the police took him away without incident.  Everyone should take a course on hand to hand combat. A small man or women can defeat a larger  person with the right moves.

Brademan

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Re: Your input please - Armed encounter scenario
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2012, 10:19:38 PM »
You just die?
You can't pick up a chair, and at least attempt to bash him with it? Or stick him with a ball-point pen?
You just run at him, bare handed?

No way, Brady. No way.

In an office, there would be a desktop-size three-hole punch. It makes a good basher.
There might be bottles, which, after being banged against an edge, could make good cutters.
There might be a coat-tree, a good basher and a good fencing tool.
You could knock things over, to impede his progress.

But, yes, you're correct that the best defense would be a quick offense that featured a gun.

All excellent points, Steve and they would all cross the minds of everyone here.  In my scenario, though, I specified that the person is unarmed, for exactly the reason that I wanted to illuminate the feeling of helplessness that occurs when there is no defensive material at hand.  (Such as in a weapon-free zone).  My hope was to make the undeniable logic of having SOME KIND of weapon inescapable.
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flyover

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Re: Your input please - Armed encounter scenario
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2012, 09:17:18 AM »
I see all kinds of weapons in most offices.  Computer keyboards come to mind first of all.  Desk drawers, although awkward, could be emptied and used as a shield.  A corded power supply could be used as a mace.  There are all kinds of "make do" weapons, one just has to be able to recognize them and the options they provide. 

Taurian

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Re: Your input please - Armed encounter scenario
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2013, 02:01:45 PM »
Know where your fire alarms are as well as any location of fire extinguishers. They can be used for more than just fires.

We have, at my place of business, a gun-free sign in the break-room. I'm assuming that the break-room is, in fact, a real gun free zone but the remainder of the building is pretty much open to speculation.  ;D

At my last place of employment I carried a weapon in my brief case for the 8 years that I worked there even though we had a secure workplace. I told no one and no one every questioned me. Don't ask. Don't tell. My briefcase (actually a Maxpedition product) was secured in a desk drawer and was out of sight during the day. I could have been immediately terminated ( I should say fired) had it been found out, but that was a price that I am willing to bear.

Speaking of "bear", a good can of Bear Spray that can reach at least 25 feet may not be a bad thing to have. Mine is in a case in my briefcase, as well. See: http://www.mace.com/personal_defense/mace-bear-pepper-spray.html for product details. The can itself is quite tall (about 9") but even in its case I can still fit is in my everyday carry bag.

I can look for a new job after the current one ends; I can't look for a new life if the current one ends.
The fact that the GOVERNMENT would even consider removing the natural right to bear arms is the very reason why the 2nd Amendment was written.

mustang125

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Your input please - Armed encounter scenario
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2013, 02:33:07 PM »
I have no doubt that if I am close to someone with a weapon and I don't have one I can get the bad guys weapon. Training over comes thug with no training almost every time. Key is you have to have training. My son and I use air soft guns for training and he has not shot me yet before I had the gun. I always have my knife but getting it out is hard in a fast situation. Look into personal defense training.

commonground

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Re: Your input please - Armed encounter scenario
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2013, 05:06:00 PM »
At my last place of employment I carried a weapon in my brief case for the 8 years that I worked there even though we had a secure workplace. I told no one and no one every questioned me. Don't ask. Don't tell. My briefcase (actually a Maxpedition product) was secured in a desk drawer and was out of sight during the day. I could have been immediately terminated ( I should say fired) had it been found out, but that was a price that I am willing to bear.

I can look for a new job after the current one ends; I can't look for a new life if the current one ends. 

My hat is off to you Taurian.  Concealed is concealed.  Not many have the grit to hold fast to their convictions such as you describe.  I like that.   ;)
“do not go to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things at stupid times.” - Gabe Suarez