Author Topic: Scenario: Not Exactly A Wonderful Day In The Neighborhood  (Read 1918 times)

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CR Williams

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Scenario: Not Exactly A Wonderful Day In The Neighborhood
« on: March 08, 2012, 06:33:55 AM »
This scenario was originally done for the USCCA Special Report "Ask The Experts". It was rejected, I think, because a decision had been made to emphasize deescalation/negotiation approaches and this could not be modified to do that as the elevator scenario, which I presented here as it had been originally presented for the SP, was done.

This is likely to be the last full-blown scenario you see from me for a while. It's not as easy to come up with one that does what I want it to do as I would like it to be. That said:


There's the guy that tried to set off the car bomb in NY and there's a couple of others that started working on blowing up some other places that they caught. Makes you wonder where else and when there will be another try...

It's a genteel enough environment, this city that you're in, that you feel all right with an evening's stroll, but not genteel enough that you're going to take that evening's stroll without your standard load-out. Which might be a good thing or a bad thing, given that you've just angled closer to a car parked by the street because of the smell of gasoline and...propane!?!?...and there they are, packed in the back seat and probably the trunk as well, live and coming to a car beside you...

Variation one-ayyyy:
You had noticed the two men crossing the street as you approached the car, run them through your threat-analysis subroutine, and decided that for now they weren't one real or potential. You have, however, picked them up again when you took a reflexive step away from the VBIED* and looked around to see who and what was in the area besides the bomb car and there they are, stopped on the sidewalk across the street a little ahead of you in the direction you were heading, focused on you.

There is a pause while you evaluate them and they evaluate you. They look at each other, exchange a few words that you're not close enough to pick up, and then look back at you as the man on the left reaches into a front pants pocket while the man on the right (they're standing side-by-side, so it's your left and right I'm referencing) starts to reach under the sports coat he has on.

No traffic or other pedestrians, retail district after hours, street lights, other parked cars scattered on both sides of the two-way street. Stores, locked, behind you, nearest non-bomb car two parking spaces to your left.

Variation one-beeeee:
Light traffic in both lanes, no other foot traffic, otherwise as the description.

Variation one-ceeeee:
Why the other people walking by didn't notice anything you will never know. Vehicular and foot traffic, zoned-out pedestrians on your side thirty feet to your right going away, fifteen feet to your left coming toward you on your side, a male and two females on the two men's side to your right closing on them at thirty feet now. Parked cars as in the description.

Variation two-aaaaay:
The men were getting out of the car as you approached to walk past. You increased distance as you passed and nodded politely to the nearest one (you're passing on the passenger side). The smell hits pretty quick, you stop and look in the back at a point about even with the rear wheel, call it three feet from the side of the car. You look quickly up at the passenger, standing with the door still open, who looks at you, looks at the driver, also standing with his door open, back at you. Driver says "Do it now."

I'm guessing you're taking that reflexive step or three away now, but you'll still see the passenger reach into front pocket and may notice movement on the driver's part, but what exactly he's doing isn't going to be clear from where you are.

This one will be the empty street as one-aaaaay. Other sub-variants with traffic as described already.

Variation Three-aaaaay:

Nobody in the car, nobody across the street, but about the time you're backing away from the VBIED and reaching for your cell phone, car engine starts, headlights hit you, and a car four spaces left on your side pulls out hard and starts rolling your way. There is enough illumination that you can see an arm projecting toward you and something in the hand at the end of that arm, but what exactly that something is can't be determined in the current lighting environment.

Variations three-beeee and three-ceeeee with traffic (car will cause some brake-screeching as it peels out) as previously described.

I'll attempt to set this up as a range exercise at a future date.

Now, I'm guessing that in most of these variations there will be some gunfire involved on your part. What I would like to examine here is:

Assuming you draw and fire, who do you shoot and in what order do you shoot them?
Why do you shoot whoever you do shoot, and why do you shoot them in that order?
Also, what, if anything, are you looking for or waiting on prior to either drawing or actually firing the gun, and what are you looking for or waiting on prior to selecting the specific target?

Get it? I'm looking for reasons for doing what you do in the specific order you do it.

Benzene fumes (I think it's benzene that comes from the gas) are not good for your health, so you need to get all this done before you breathe much more of it. GO.

*VBIED - Vehicle- or Vehicular-Born Improvised Explosive Device
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 12:29:26 PM by Coastie »
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Twodogs10mm

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Re: Scenario: Not Exactly A Wonderful Day In The Neighborhood
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2012, 10:15:48 AM »
Variation one-ayyy:   MOVE and draw, get behind car to left and two spaces down, this to provide cover from bad guys and cover and distance  from car bomb.  If you can smell the gas and or propane fumes and you fire while in the fumes good chance of ignighting said fumes and bomb.   Once behind car re evaluate, opps time to go to work :( will finish later. 

« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 08:33:27 PM by Twodogs10mm »
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PPK-380

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Re: Scenario: Not Exactly A Wonderful Day In The Neighborhood
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2012, 02:56:18 PM »
I would say that if you are still close enough to smell it that you wont be smelling anything much longer.
 
And remember folks when using cars for cover get behind a tire if at all possible, car bodies will not stop a lot of the rounds out there these days but the hub of the wheel will and hopefully you can get to a front wheel so that the engine can help with that.
 
I am a bit too confused with the whole scenario to talk about shooting anything other than to say if someone shoots at me I will shoot back at that person. Then again if you are close enough to smell the fumes none of that will do you much good IMO.
 
And folks do not for a minute think that these type things can not and will not start to happen here. Older cars that are riding very low in the back are a good give away but a VBIED is not the only reason a car would be riding like that....just a good reason to watch it closer.
 
Awaiting further lessons from the teacher. :)
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Twodogs10mm

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Re: Scenario: Not Exactly A Wonderful Day In The Neighborhood
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2012, 09:36:10 PM »
One-ayyy continued.  While MOVEing and getting to cover also keep eye on bad guys and be ready fire while getting to cover if they draw guns from pocket or from under coat.  If you can get a shot of before they do it should at least make them move instead of aquiring you as a target and getting off an accurate shot.  (good reason to practice shooting on the move) Once behind cover if they are not pointing weapons at you and shooting then observe them and move again to next closest cover, repeat.

If they are shooting at you then you must try to keep both in sight and take them out as quickly as possible, hopefully they are still standing in open together, if so and you can drop down and shoot from under car.  More likely one will try to keep you pinned down while the other flanks you, or worse there could be other BGs.  I would try to take the BG that had the best tactical advantage first if possible.    Make your shots count.
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CR Williams

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Re: Scenario: Not Exactly A Wonderful Day In The Neighborhood
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2012, 06:01:17 AM »
Hmmmm, he says, seeing a gap in the knowledge base that he didn't expect...

So, I'll insert a hint:

Cell phones have been used to remotely detonate IEDs. They're not the only way IEDs have been remotely detonated, either.

Does this hint change your actions, whether you shoot and/or who gets shot in what order?

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PPK-380

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Re: Scenario: Not Exactly A Wonderful Day In The Neighborhood
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2012, 12:23:58 AM »
While the VBIED and all that it contains is dangerous stuff I still only see the car racing toward me with someone actually shooting at me to be an obvious danger to my life. Of course the VBIED is but if it is already set I dont see how any amount of small arms fire is going to save me if I am already that close.
 
From what you have written it seems that it is our day to go no matter what.
 
Stopping someone who has gone through all of that prep work to set a VBIED with our carry guns seems a bit impossible to me.
 
That dont mean that I may not try just that there are still too many variables to consider before shooting at anyone who is not already shooting at me.
 
Given all the facts that you have presented I likely would leave the area and get a good ways away before calling 911.
 
We dont bring knifes to gun fights and expect to win and we sure dont bring handguns to a VBIED attack and expect to win or survive.
 
I think that you are testing us differently than in the past.
 
Then again maybe I'm just crazy. :)
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Twodogs10mm

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Re: Scenario: Not Exactly A Wonderful Day In The Neighborhood
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2012, 08:35:59 PM »
Hmmmm, he says, seeing a gap in the knowledge base that he didn't expect...

So, I'll insert a hint:

Cell phones have been used to remotely detonate IEDs. They're not the only way IEDs have been remotely detonated, either.



Does this hint change your actions, whether you shoot and/or who gets shot in what order?

To be honest I did think of that but I somewhat dissmissed it because they were right across the street and I was hoping they were not suicidal :o we know there aren't suicide bombers  :-[.   I guess thats the purpose of these exercises, live and learn. 

In retrospect I guess as I was moving and watching the BG,s if I was sure they were  ??? I would have to take out the one using his cell phone first. but if he had the # preset in his phone I wouldn't have much time.

This is a tough but possible senerio it would be hard to shot the two with only the info given, but is what needs to be done if true.
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CR Williams

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Re: Scenario: Not Exactly A Wonderful Day In The Neighborhood
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2012, 05:59:35 AM »
I think that you are testing us differently than in the past.

No, not really. I still want to know WHY you do what you do more than WHAT you do. It is my contention that most gun-carriers don't go over WHY as much as they need to.

In this case, I am if anything more overt about asking WHY than previously. This is a specific case where you need to be able to articulate the reason for shooting anybody, and the reason why you shot who you shot when you shot them.

Twodogs10mm, it is true that the guys don't perhaps intend to suicide from the get-go, but setting them up as I did it seems reasonable to assume that they would do that if the mission were compromised. Even if not, the passenger could be going for the gun in his pocket to kill you with so they can get clear and detonate before it's reported.

The key, ladies and gentlemen, is to be able to clearly tell the investigators and perhaps the judge and/or jury WHY you believed a threat existed such that you were compelled to open fire.
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Scenario: Not Exactly A Wonderful Day In The Neighborhood
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2012, 05:47:26 PM »
I too suggest that if using a car for cover to get behind a wheel. Not everyone knows about "skip shooting" but enough do for it to be a reality to contend with. Bullets and buckshot dance nicely across the surface of concrete and/or asphalt. 

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CR Williams

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Re: Scenario: Not Exactly A Wonderful Day In The Neighborhood
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2012, 06:28:36 AM »
The places to use for cover with a car or regular vehicle will be the engine-block area and the wheel hubs. There isn't much of anything else that can be trusted even if you're making someone shoot at you through the length of the vehicle.

But is hiding behind a car going to save you if they trigger that bomb?
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