Author Topic: Triggernomitry?  (Read 785 times)

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Taurian

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Triggernomitry?
« on: October 03, 2016, 10:50:08 AM »
What most 21st Century Americans simply do not grasp is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights were not written to to give rights to the citizens of our then-new nation, but was instead written to tightly constrain the federal government.

M1911A1

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Re: Triggernomitry?
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2016, 01:58:10 PM »
While Suarez is correct on all counts, I would have to be very, very certain of the capabilities of my student, before I ever began teaching the "tactical" staging of the trigger finger.

However, I admit that this is how I shoot, too.
If my pistol is out, my finger is on its trigger.
That's how I was taught, and it's how I still practice.

Note: I have, many times, stopped my finger in mid-press, as I realized that "this is a no-shoot target."
Steve,
retired leathersmith and practical shooter


"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."

NorCalChuck

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Re: Triggernomitry?
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2016, 02:40:03 PM »
An accident looking for a time to happen . . . . .
Good Luck.
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oldranger53

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Re: Triggernomitry?
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2016, 07:40:18 PM »
While Suarez is correct on all counts, I would have to be very, very certain of the capabilities of my student, before I ever began teaching the "tactical" staging of the trigger finger.

However, I admit that this is how I shoot, too.
If my pistol is out, my finger is on its trigger.
That's how I was taught, and it's how I still practice.

Note: I have, many times, stopped my finger in mid-press, as I realized that "this is a no-shoot target."
I was like you, Steve, most of my life.
It's only been recently, like the last 7 or 8 years, that I've disciplined myself to keep trigger finger outside the guard until ready to fire.

I can see merit in both techniques, however.

<Stand Tall.  Speak the Truth.  Never Surrender.>

Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.

M1911A1

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Re: Triggernomitry?
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2016, 09:40:52 PM »
Yeah.
My reflexes ain't what they used to be. I gotta be extra careful.

Interesting:
When I practice presentations with the Colt's Pocket Hammerless .380, I keep my finger off of its trigger.
But when I practice with the shortie .45, I go back to my old habit of immediately touching its trigger.

I think that the difference is occasioned by old "muscle memory" that is triggered (sorry for the pun) by the very different, and differently positioned, safety lever of the .45 shortie.
If I'm thumbing against the .380's low, flat safety, my index finger is on the frame; but if I have to lift my thumb up to find the .45's safety, my index finger instinctively also finds the trigger.
Steve,
retired leathersmith and practical shooter


"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."

Taurian

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Re: Triggernomitry?
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2016, 07:23:28 AM »
Not all triggers are created equal.  It is up to the operator to learn the trigger on his or her particular firearm.  Personally, I don't like surprises. I need to know at what point the hammer releases or the striker falls within the total travel of the trigger.  The single-action trigger is the easiest to work with regardless of the platform in which it is used.

With that said, I am more conscious of the trigger of a single-action revolver, because there is virtually no "staging" point.  The finger on the trigger is the staging point and a "twitchy" trigger finger is detrimental to proper SA handling.  The trigger of a single-action semi-automatic can be just as touchy as that found on a single-action revolver depending upon how the trigger mechanism is adjusted.

I have a friend who has a 1911 with a trigger that is more like that found on a single-action revolver; it is very short, light, and has no take-up (slack) whatsoever. The pistol is inherently dangerous and I take extreme care when shooting it.  This is one pistol that I move the trigger finger to the frame after firing a shot and moving the thumb safety to the "safe" position.

Since I am used to a thumb safety, that safety lever determines when I am ready to fire on my own 1911 pistols.  Unless I am "off target" or have finished firing, the trigger finger is in close proximity to the trigger if not resting lightly on it and the thumb safety is flipped to the safe position.  In short, the thumb safety serves as a trigger to the trigger finger.

Most revolvers have a "staging" point that is quite different from the definition provided by the author of the article. During a double-action revolver's trigger travel, there is a point where the hammer goes "slack" and this point is more or less pronounced depending on the revolver.  Ruger revolvers have an excellent "staging" point.  The Smith and Wesson 686 had a good staging point, but it is not as pronounced as with the Ruger revolvers. This "staging" point was a point at which just a little further trigger pull would drop the hammer.  I learned to use this "staging" point in competition; it was the last point where I could determine if my sights were properly aligned on the target before the shot was made.  It was also a point where I could back off the trigger and the cylinder would be properly locked into place should I decide that I needed to take the shot.

"Riding the reset" is the most difficult for me to try and master.  I know pretty much the reset point in the 1911 that I carry, but that pistol is not the only pistol that I shoot and every pistol exhibits a different trigger reset point.  For that reason, I usually allow the trigger to come forward to the forward limit of its travel but yet keep the trigger finger in contact with the trigger for a follow-up shot if needed or desired.

The author of the article mentioned recoil.  I look at recoil as a teaching tool.  What the recoil does to the pistol (or revolver) in my hand tells me if I am doing things correctly or incorrectly relative to my grip, the position of the firearm in my hand, and possibly even my shooting stance.  In short, if the recoil forces the gun to twist in my hand, I was not ready to manage the recoil. If the recoil forces the muzzle up only in the vertical place, I have done my job in managing the recoil.

Regripping the firearm in between shots is an indicator that the grip was not correct in the first place.  It is only natural that we adjust the grip to obtain a better grip. While watching professional shooters, I noticed that they never change their grip during a string of fire. Even when they pivot their upper bodies to engage a different target, the grip never changes. Even if they physically move their entire body from target to target, the grip never changes - not that can be observed, at least.  They are at one with the gun and us mere mortals struggle to emulate them.

When I point a pistol at a target, I have every intention of shooting it (whether in dry-fire practice or for real). Therefore, I should have everything ready to do so.  It is then up to the target (passive or dynamic), and my own evaluation of the situation, if I follow through with the intention - or not.
What most 21st Century Americans simply do not grasp is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights were not written to to give rights to the citizens of our then-new nation, but was instead written to tightly constrain the federal government.

M1911A1

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Re: Triggernomitry?
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2016, 01:41:58 PM »
..."Riding the reset" is the most difficult for me to try and master...
To me, this is really more a competition tool than a practical technique.
I believe that "riding the reset" is actually dangerous, in a gunfight situation. It will lead to unintended discharges, as your mind panics and your fingers become unresponsive sausages.


...While watching professional shooters, I noticed that they never change their grip during a string of fire. Even when they pivot their upper bodies to engage a different target, the grip never changes. Even if they physically move their entire body from target to target, the grip never changes...
This is a most-practical technique, and I recommend it to you, and to everyone else who shoots a pistol.
It is not just the grip that is unchanging, but also the position and stiffness of the arms, the shoulders, and, indeed, the entire upper body.
Swivelling, or other rotational movement, takes place at the waist and hips, and locomotion is exclusively the province of the legs.
One might think of the pistol shooter's upper body as the turret of a tank, rotating upon the hips. The only aiming change possible is in elevation, which is always a minimal amount of movement, and which occurs only at the shoulder joints.
Steve,
retired leathersmith and practical shooter


"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."

Taurian

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Re: Triggernomitry?
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2016, 01:46:38 PM »
Thank you for clarifying and bringing these points to light.
What most 21st Century Americans simply do not grasp is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights were not written to to give rights to the citizens of our then-new nation, but was instead written to tightly constrain the federal government.

M1911A1

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Re: Triggernomitry?
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2016, 01:50:15 PM »
Addendum to the Previous Post:
My 1911s all have light, short-movement triggers.
I was taught, in practical competition, to keep my finger on the trigger, and to press the trigger straight to the rear when a shot is required. (In point-to-point movement, the safety is on and the finger is off.)
In truth, I actually "slap" my trigger (or maybe "jab" is a better word), without much force, and always straight to the rear.

The "weightiest" triggers I have to deal with are on Jean's Kel-Tec P-3AT (long, and maybe nine pounds), on my Pocket Hammerless .380 (maybe five pounds, or six), and on my shortie .45 (about four pounds).
My two full-size 1911s weigh in at a little less than 3.5 pounds.
Steve,
retired leathersmith and practical shooter


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oldranger53

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Re: Triggernomitry?
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2016, 03:34:11 PM »
One thing for sure...all this talk about Triggers and Trigger Control has caused me to research and study available material about the topic!

Truly, I knew it was important but I did not know how important it is to so many people!

Whew!  Seems like folks are nearly as dogmatic about their beliefs on Trigger Control as they are with calibers and stances...etc...

<Stand Tall.  Speak the Truth.  Never Surrender.>

Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.

M1911A1

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Re: Triggernomitry?
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2016, 04:25:40 PM »
I believe that trigger control, no matter how you accomplish it, is the most important accuracy fundamental.
Find a method (any method) that is comfortable for you, and that won't betray you in a panicked situation, and you'll be OK.
Steve,
retired leathersmith and practical shooter


"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."