Author Topic: What Is An Acceptable Level of Combat Accuracy...  (Read 1043 times)

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Taurian

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What most 21st Century Americans simply do not grasp is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights were not written to to give rights to the citizens of our then-new nation, but was instead written to tightly constrain the federal government.

M1911A1

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Re: What Is An Acceptable Level of Combat Accuracy...
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2016, 12:03:19 PM »
Spray-and-pray is not "combat accuracy." Agreed.
As the man wrote, you gotta hit something vital, and you gotta do it quickly.
Four MOA? Seems like a good standard to me.
But 25 yards? With a carbine? No. I can still do much better than that. (With a pistol? Not any more.)
Steve,
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"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."

Taurian

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Re: What Is An Acceptable Level of Combat Accuracy...
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2016, 01:22:31 PM »
I have never been fast.  I am, according to one of my shooting buddies, methodical.  I am patient and bullheaded; these are good traits for a sniper but not necessarily an "action" shooter, which one has to be when confronted with an armed adversary a few yards away. 

I remember a line in "True Grit" with John Wayne.  "Rooster" was describing Ned Pepper (played by Robert Duvall) and he mentioned that Ned had a scar on his lower lip, because that's where he shot him. When asked what he was shooting at, Rooster said his upper lip - but he missed.

While I like tight groups, I like it better when I can hit at my point-of aim. I have my "Tunnel of Love" - one inch within my point-of-aim at most close distances. At greater distances, trajectory plays a big part and I have to compensate for that.  At twenty-five yards, and with a handgun shooting offhand, if I can keep my shots within 8 inches, I am having a good day.  It would be a bad day if I shot that with a carbine.

This past range day, and I am not bragging, I was able to place three head shots within the size of a quarter at fifteen yards with the RAS47. A two shots to the chest and then transition to some point in the head.  I knew the RAS47 was hitting low at fifteen yards and had to compensate a bit for the drop for a good middle-of-the-head impact.  The fourth head shot went a little low left, but was still within 3" of the 3-shot group.  This was the best I have been able to shoot the RAS47 offhand - so far.

I think that we pride ourselves when we shoot tight groups, and rightfully so.  Tight groups mean consistency.  With that said, I feel it more important to hit what I am aiming at regardless of where the point of aim is.  If I point to the shoulder, that's where I want a hole to appear.  That's not much to ask for, is it?
What most 21st Century Americans simply do not grasp is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights were not written to to give rights to the citizens of our then-new nation, but was instead written to tightly constrain the federal government.

M1911A1

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Re: What Is An Acceptable Level of Combat Accuracy...
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2016, 04:07:19 PM »
I suggest that with a pistol, one must be quick. No... Rather, one must be very, very quick.
From a concealment holster of your choice, within one second (or, if possible, less):
1. You need to be able to make a head shot at three yards, and maybe even at five. Seven is better.
2. You need to be able to make a high-center (fatal triangle) shot at seven yards, and maybe even at 10.
3. You need to be able to make a general center-of-mass shot at 10 yards, and maybe even at 15.
4. You need to be able to hit the upper torso (i.e., IPSC silhouette) at 15 yards with complete certainty.
(I would right now be able to do them in 1.5 seconds each.)

In opposition to that, I suggest that with a rifle (not a carbine), getting into position quickly is more important than making a quick hit.
If one takes 10 seconds to make a solid 100-yard center hit, at least eight of those seconds should've been spent on getting from standing into a firm prone position. And then, having assumed a firm position, it doesn't matter if one's hit is made in the following two, three, or four seconds.
(Of course, at my present age, I could go prone as quick as you like, but I couldn't get back up again.)
Steve,
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"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."

Taurian

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Re: What Is An Acceptable Level of Combat Accuracy...
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2016, 06:51:23 AM »
There was a time when my body could go from 0-100 in 6 seconds like a finely-tuned sports car.  Today, I can go from 0-60 in ten minutes like a poorly-tuned 1965 Volkswagon Beetle.

There was a time when I could go prone, swing around into a sitting position, move from the sitting position into a kneeling position, and finally move into a standing position without the aid of a hydraulic lift (as it would be today).
What most 21st Century Americans simply do not grasp is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights were not written to to give rights to the citizens of our then-new nation, but was instead written to tightly constrain the federal government.

M1911A1

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Re: What Is An Acceptable Level of Combat Accuracy...
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2016, 12:17:10 PM »
...Today, I can go from 0-60 in ten minutes like a poorly-tuned 1965 Volkswagon Beetle...

Careful, there!
My '65 Beetle lasted well into the 1980s, and it got me, my first wife, and our daughter to wherever we wanted to go. It plowed through mud and snow like a 4WD, and didn't need a lot of those tune-ups of which you speak so loosely.
My daughter was shocked and hurt when, after its first and only engine blew a piston, I sold it instead of saving it for her to grow up into.
She and I still miss it. (Last birthday, I gave her a 1/35-scale replica of it. I also got one for myself.)
Steve,
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"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."

NorCalChuck

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Re: What Is An Acceptable Level of Combat Accuracy...
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2016, 01:48:55 PM »
At my present age I try much harder to slow my reaction down to a point where the hit becomes more important than the time.
I know and understand that my present age means that if I attempt to much speed I will probably miss my first shot.
At least that has been my experience with the present day IDPA matches I attempt to participate in.
With this kind of present day results a good hit becomes much more important than a first shot miss.

But than again that is only my opinion . . . . .
"We will have a good government as long as those that govern are effected by those laws that they pass. When those that are passing the laws are no longer effected by those laws then they will no longer pass good laws."

Taurian

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Re: What Is An Acceptable Level of Combat Accuracy...
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2016, 03:34:38 PM »
...Today, I can go from 0-60 in ten minutes like a poorly-tuned 1965 Volkswagon Beetle...

Careful, there!
My '65 Beetle lasted well into the 1980s, and it got me, my first wife, and our daughter to wherever we wanted to go. It plowed through mud and snow like a 4WD, and didn't need a lot of those tune-ups of which you speak so loosely.
My daughter was shocked and hurt when, after its first and only engine blew a piston, I sold it instead of saving it for her to grow up into.
She and I still miss it. (Last birthday, I gave her a 1/35-scale replica of it. I also got one for myself.)
I have nothing against early VWs.  My first was a '56, then a '65 Bus, and finally a '70 Super Beetle that would whip a M151 Jeep in a 1/4 mile drag race.  On occasion, we would pull the engine from the '65 bus, plant it in a Karmann Ghia that was set-up for racing, go dirt track racing on a Sunday, and then put it back in the bus so I could get to work on Monday.  I also had a 3-wheeler with a 1500cc upright in it - and it would stand the front in high in the air - very impressive and scary at red lights.  I also had a kit copy of a 1924 Bugatti that had a VW engine, a '67 if I remember correctly; bored, stroked, and polished with a dual 34mm carb setup.

Early VW engines took quite a bit of PM to keep them running in top shape, most of which included frequent valve adjustments and proper ignition timing. Like an old VW engine, I need frequent care just to keep going.  I probably spend more time at the range these days just to keep my shooting maintenance up to snuff.  I am still able to place 50-rounds of 125-grain .357 magnum in an 8-inch circle at 15-yards shooting off-hand and I am fine with that.  Twenty some odd years ago, I would be doing that at 25-yards, but the hand is a little shakier and the eyes a little older nowadays.  It would seem that the older one gets, the more range time is needed - not less.
What most 21st Century Americans simply do not grasp is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights were not written to to give rights to the citizens of our then-new nation, but was instead written to tightly constrain the federal government.

M1911A1

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Re: What Is An Acceptable Level of Combat Accuracy...
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2016, 04:05:02 PM »
...Like an old VW engine, I need frequent care just to keep going.
Me, too!
Particularly the valve adjustments.


...I am still able to place 50-rounds of 125-grain .357 magnum in an 8-inch circle at 15-yards shooting off-hand....
Better'n me!
(But I'm about to try a mini-.45 again. Wish me luck!)


...the hand is a little shakier and the eyes a little older nowadays...the older one gets, the more range time is needed...
Yeah, but now all the friends who own property large enough to shoot on are all either going or gone.
What's an old fart to do?
Steve,
retired leathersmith and practical shooter


"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."

oldranger53

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Re: What Is An Acceptable Level of Combat Accuracy...
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2016, 04:29:23 PM »
Steve!
I wish you Great Luck with the .45!

The other day I ran a magazine full of "full power" 220gr (990 fps advertised) through the .45 I went to this year.  The recoil was noticeably stronger than the 230gr hardball loads I'd been shooting through it.

Now I'm thinking very hard about asking my dr to give me another injection(s) in my right thumb joint, like he did last year.

It's not as bad as it was last year, but I sure felt it more.  I want to give myself every possible advantage in this regard.

Again...Great Luck!

Nothing quite like KNOWING there's a .45 in yer holster!

<Stand Tall.  Speak the Truth.  Never Surrender.>
Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.

M1911A1

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Re: What Is An Acceptable Level of Combat Accuracy...
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2016, 07:54:53 PM »
I, too, get steroid injections at the base (in the first joint) of my right thumb.
Each one works for about three months. But, boy-oh-boy, do these shots work! Wow!
It's the results of the most recent shot that makes me brave enough to try shooting a .45 carry gun again.

But still I need a daily pain-killer.
Even the daily dose of Prednisone isn't enough.

Trouble is, the combination of Prednisone and Celebrex (the NSAID pain-killer I've been using) made me a little muscle-slow and fumble-footed, and I was falling down a lot. Falling down is not good for people taking Warfarin, a serious blood-thinner and anti-coagulant (which includes me).
So I've switched to Ibuprofin for a while, and, for the most part, it seems to be doing the job. Once the Prednisone dose is brought as low as possible, I'll try the Celebrex again.

Remember all those jokes about old people and their "rheumatizz"? And being "under the weather"? Well, they're all true! It's due to changes in barometric pressure.
If the weather is going to change tomorrow, I feel it today! Not just "feel it," but suffer serious pain and even some depression from it!

All of that has kept me chained to my .380 ACP Colt. Some days, I've even had to carry Jean's little Kel-Tec P-3AT as "The Left-Handed Gun" (with apologies to Paul Newman).

But right now, I feel good enough to try my old, all-steel, shortie .45 again.
It all goes away within a day, but it certainly isn't pleasant while it's happening.
Steve,
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"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."

CR Williams

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Re: What Is An Acceptable Level of Combat Accuracy...
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2016, 05:20:42 AM »
I, too, get steroid injections at the base (in the first joint) of my right thumb.
Each one works for about three months. But, boy-oh-boy, do these shots work! Wow!
It's the results of the most recent shot that makes me brave enough to try shooting a .45 carry gun again.

You and oldranger53 might want to try some standard-pressure 185gr loads, Steve. That should reduce felt recoil some. As far as ballistics, you'll get at least .45GAP performance out of those as I remember.
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Taurian

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Re: What Is An Acceptable Level of Combat Accuracy...
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2016, 06:26:17 AM »
Along with CR's recommendation, I would also suggest the use of a shooting glove.  The purpose of the shooting glove is to help protect the Median Nerve of the hand from the effects of recoil. I use finger-less weight-lifting gloves that have adequate padding in the palm and web of the thumb. A good glove for riding bicycles are also good.

Most of the recoil from handguns are directed into the web of the thumb and a shooting glove helps to distribute the recoil rather than the recoil being directed straight into a small area.  Yes, the shooting glove is awkward at first, but you will become accustomed to it in a short time.

I agree that you will not have time to don a glove in a defensive situation, but chances are you will not be shooting a large quantity of bullets as you would at the range. The thinner the gripping area, and the heavier the recoil, dictates protecting the shooting hand.

Now, I will admit that the use of a shooting glove can interfere with your shooting; this happened to me during CR's BBG course. The grip on the Ruger SR1911 CMD-A was my usual Hogue wraparound grip with finger grooves. I had three sets of shooting gloves with me.  By the end of the course, I was not wearing a shooting glove at all.  Although they all protected my hand, the gripping area on the pistol was thicker than what it would have been with stock grip panels, and I felt that I did not have a good grip on the pistol with any of the gloves. With that said, there are pro and cons with wearing a shooting glove, and I have since found a shooting glove that works with the Hogue grips in my hands. 

You wear hearing and eye protection when shooting, why not protect the very tool that holds the firearm?
What most 21st Century Americans simply do not grasp is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights were not written to to give rights to the citizens of our then-new nation, but was instead written to tightly constrain the federal government.

M1911A1

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Re: What Is An Acceptable Level of Combat Accuracy...
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2016, 10:32:33 AM »
Good advice from both of you.
Richard, I have 185-grain loads, and I will try them out.
Taurian, I don't have such a glove, and it'll be a while 'till I get one, but I'll try that too.

Thanks!
Steve,
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"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."

oldranger53

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Re: What Is An Acceptable Level of Combat Accuracy...
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2016, 10:38:15 AM »
Yes, thanks!  I too will try it out!

<Stand Tall.  Speak the Truth.  Never Surrender.>

Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.