Author Topic: A piece I wrote for 'The Tactical Hermit'  (Read 1276 times)

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CR Williams

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A piece I wrote for 'The Tactical Hermit'
« on: August 07, 2016, 07:46:47 PM »
https://thetacticalhermit.com/2016/08/07/dealing-with-armored-attackers-the-police-pdw-concept/

I don't just talk about police use of the PDW here, either. There's things in this article we can all use in considering the concept.
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M1911A1

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Re: A piece I wrote for 'The Tactical Hermit'
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2016, 08:34:07 PM »
I didn't read all the way through it yet.
I just "tasted" it, so I do not know whether you covered the issue that the subject brought to my mind.
If you did cover it completely, I apologize for the following comment.

Generally speaking, the one thing that makes my mind militate against most "long arms" and all fully-automatic weapons in police hands, is the terribly incomplete firearms training, firearms-skill maintenance, and firearms-tactics training that I have noticed in the few state, county, and city PDs with which I have come into fairly close contact.
From this admittedly-small body of experience, I am driven to the conclusion that I don't want to see any American street cop, and most American SWAT cops, in "control" of an automatic weapon.

To some extent, the police in Great Britain do it better, in that armed cops there kept apart from the usual run of street cop and detective.
Instead, they are very specially equipped and trained, they are required to continue their training for as long as they serve, and they do nothing else.

Our generalist police, even in the case of SWAT, are neither focussed enough, nor under sufficient control, to make me confident of either their skill-sets or their restraint.
Steve,
retired leathersmith and practical shooter


"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."

CR Williams

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Re: A piece I wrote for 'The Tactical Hermit'
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2016, 05:30:43 AM »
You've got a point, Steve, though I would submit that the armed police in Britain are not as well-trained and capable as you believe in the aggregate. And you might should read it through as I address the training question and offer an alternative that does not involve strapping an additional weapon that most PDs can't afford anyway onto the body. Besides that I add considerations for those of us outside of police departments that want to consider the idea of a PDW.
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Taurian

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Re: A piece I wrote for 'The Tactical Hermit'
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2016, 05:35:56 AM »
I have to go along with M1911A1 on this one; "Our generalist police, even in the case of SWAT, are neither focused enough, nor under sufficient control, to make me confident of either their skill-sets or their restraint."

Shot placement is still a key component in stopping a threat.  I am more concerned with stopping a threat delivered by a low-level street cretin than I am with an armored-up, AK-equipped demented individual bent on shooting anyone that moves;  the percentage of actually meeting that person (at this time) is extremely small.

As far as what a legally-licensed civilian wants to carry as their PDW, I leave it up to them.  I find it difficult enough to properly conceal a full-size 1911-based pistol in the hot Georgia summer let alone even attempt to properly conceal a larger firearm. LEOs, of course, need not worry about concealment.  No matter what manner of PDW the police show up with will not affect the determination of an armed individual - that's akin to saying that racking a shotgun will make the assailant flee in panic at the sound of that action.

Personally, I am at the range every weekend working on shot placement, regardless of the firearm being used during the range session, and I realize that is not enough, but total immersion is not practical with my current lifestyle and means of income.

Perhaps we have reached the point where seeing that fully-armored and militarized police are normal in our society rather than the exception.  If they are to be equipped with select-fire PDWs, we have a big problem - and it is not simply confined to a small town in rural Georgia.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 06:46:29 AM by Taurian »
What most 21st Century Americans simply do not grasp is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights were not written to to give rights to the citizens of our then-new nation, but was instead written to tightly constrain the federal government.

CR Williams

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Re: A piece I wrote for 'The Tactical Hermit'
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2016, 12:26:52 PM »
I want to make sure: Did either of you actually read the article?

If you did not, go to the part sub-titled 'First Step'.
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M1911A1

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Re: A piece I wrote for 'The Tactical Hermit'
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2016, 01:31:35 PM »
I had previously read more than half of it, and now I've read the whole thing.
And yes, I did read, and I do remember, "The First Step." That is, to a great extent, the origin of my negative comment and argument.

I still firmly hold that, as presently constituted, our nation's various non-federal police forces are too generalized to make use of the training that is needed to permit the use of long arms and fully-automatic weapons without jeopardizing the lives and rights of the general citizenry.

The training may be provided, and the police personnel may actually take the training and pass its final examination, but because the normal daily police work-load does not include any need for the use of such weapons, the skills imparted by the specialized weapons training will soon evaporate.

I still suggest that accurate long-distance shooting and the use of fully-automatic weapons are such specialized activities that they should be left to police personnel who do nothing else.

Of course, that leads to a problem that we already see: SWAT is used to deliver search warrants and to make middle-of-the-night arrests because the SWAT troops "need to be used for something." They are too expensive to be left either continually training or just sitting around awaiting a call to arms. And this misuse of the SWAT personnel also leads to excesses dangerous to the general public.

Probably, we need many fewer SWAT personnel, organized into many fewer teams. Every town and county doesn't need its own SWAT. Several counties could be banded together, to pay for and to use one small SWAT organization that is highly mobile and quick on its feet. A few big cities would still need their own SWAT groups, but certainly not all cities.

With this separation of the work-load, the police would do better and the citizenry would be safer.
Steve,
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"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."

Taurian

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Re: A piece I wrote for 'The Tactical Hermit'
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2016, 01:45:10 PM »
I want to make sure: Did either of you actually read the article?

If you did not, go to the part sub-titled 'First Step'.
I read it in full! And, just to check myself, I re-read Part 1.

I still have to go along with M1911A1 on this one; "Our generalist police, even in the case of SWAT, are neither focused enough, nor under sufficient control, to make me confident of either their skill-sets or their restraint."

There are too many officers that cannot put bullets on target in "semi-automatic mode," let alone provide them with a "fun switch" on their PDW.  I am not in disagreement that officer's need more training to enable them to "aim small miss small" or to be able to detect "tells" as it was put. I am in disagreement with equipment being more important than officer skills.    “… it can be generally agreed that the modern personal-defense weapon will be a short-barreled rifle (SBR) chambered in a caliber more powerful than a typical handgun cartridge. Often, the PDW will have select-fire capabilities.” is not something that I go along with as an EDC for general police carry.

Other opinions may differ and that is alright with me. I am just voicing my own.
What most 21st Century Americans simply do not grasp is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights were not written to to give rights to the citizens of our then-new nation, but was instead written to tightly constrain the federal government.

CR Williams

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Re: A piece I wrote for 'The Tactical Hermit'
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2016, 04:52:41 AM »
Okay, I understand your points. Might I point out that your concerns don't have much to do with the subject matter? I don't say anything about automatic (not true, you know, unless someone's running around with SAWs or 60s) or select-fire (more accurate) weapons. I'm addressing points in the first article and offering an alternative (which is not a select-fire weapon, incidentally). Most police rifles are semi-auto anyway--ain't many of them got the three-position selectors that I'm aware of.
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Taurian

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Re: A piece I wrote for 'The Tactical Hermit'
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2016, 08:38:30 AM »
The responding article was well thought out and well articulated.

With that said, my argument is as before, and in regards to the article from which the response was formed: “… it can be generally agreed that the modern personal-defense weapon will be a short-barreled rifle (SBR) chambered in a caliber more powerful than a typical handgun cartridge. Often, the PDW will have select-fire capabilities.” is not something that I go along with as an EDC for general police carry.

Although we are far from the "Barney Fife" days, is equipping street officers with military-grade equipment and ammunition for every "Mayberry" town necessary?

Law enforcement has been faced with the same problems since law enforcement began; under-equipped and out-gunned by the criminal to one degree or another.  If we look at the "Roarin'n Twenties" the bad guys had Thompson Sub-machine guns, B.A.Rs, and the mighty Colt 1911; whereas, the police still had anemic .38 special revolvers. It was frantic among law enforcement agencies to just keep pace let alone get ahead. The Thompson Sub-machine gun was banned for civilian use, as was the B.A.R because the bad folks used them.  Then, as now, only government agencies have the more powerful weapons, unless an individual can afford to pay a king's ransom for the "privilege" to own certain weapons that exhibit short barrels or fully-automatic capabilities. Today, still, law enforcement is under-equipped and lack the firepower necessary to do their jobs - let alone be able to adequately train their personnel. But, agencies still try to be as well-equipped as the military in order to put down everyday crime and maintain public safety.

Anyway, I'm getting on too much of a rant.

Again, the responding article was well thought out and well articulated.
What most 21st Century Americans simply do not grasp is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights were not written to to give rights to the citizens of our then-new nation, but was instead written to tightly constrain the federal government.

CR Williams

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Re: A piece I wrote for 'The Tactical Hermit'
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2016, 12:44:23 PM »
I can agree with you that there is an element of over-reaction (you could even call it a touch of panic) in Captain Pope's call for a PDW such as the HK MP7 or P90 he list among possibilities. I don't think you have to worry about too many departments picking them up because of the cost involved, though. And there are plenty of rifles being handed out anyway. He does have a valid point of concern about body armor, however. I believe it will still be rare but it will also be seen more often as time goes by. Police need better strategies for dealing with it than 'call SWAT' or 'run away'. Up-gunning is an option but not necessarily the best one, especially given that hard plates often are resistant to multiple hits from the 5.56 caliber round his preferred definition includes.

Another problem is that many, perhaps most departments will balk at changing or increasing firearms training to give everybody more precision with their shooting. That's an admin problem I have no answer to.
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M1911A1

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Re: A piece I wrote for 'The Tactical Hermit'
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2016, 01:18:48 PM »
...Another problem is that many, perhaps most departments will balk at changing or increasing firearms training to give everybody more precision with their shooting. That's an admin problem I have no answer to.

...And there, in a nutshell, lies the entire issue.

The day-to-day cop on the street doesn't have time for more firearms training and practice. And without continuing training and practice, useful learned skills atrophy quickly.

The US Army has handled the problem by creating designated marksmen who accompany patrols. Their tasks include skill maintenance and patrol security, but probably not house clearing.

In old LAPD practice, there was always a sergeant available, in a car, ready to quickly get anywhere within the area of patrol responsibility. Why not have a designated marksman (or two) in a car, ready to respond anywhere within the patrol area?
Steve,
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oldranger53

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Re: A piece I wrote for 'The Tactical Hermit'
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2016, 05:47:51 PM »




<snip>

Another problem is that many, perhaps most departments will balk at changing or increasing firearms training to give everybody more precision with their shooting. That's an admin problem I have no answer to.



Not to mention that not everyone CAN be a "good shot", regardless of training.
Isn't that why the army dropped the .45?

<Stand Tall.  Speak the Truth.  Never Surrender.>

Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.

CR Williams

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Re: A piece I wrote for 'The Tactical Hermit'
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2016, 05:03:57 AM »
...Another problem is that many, perhaps most departments will balk at changing or increasing firearms training to give everybody more precision with their shooting. That's an admin problem I have no answer to.

Why not have a designated marksman (or two) in a car, ready to respond anywhere within the patrol area?

You'd have to stop forcing out the meat-eaters and hiring snowflakes and social workers before you could get somebody that was enough of a gun-guy to do that job, Steve. Admins aren't going to go for that. It would mark someone as 'special' and we can't have that now, can we?
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CR Williams

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Re: A piece I wrote for 'The Tactical Hermit'
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2016, 05:04:59 AM »




<snip>

Another problem is that many, perhaps most departments will balk at changing or increasing firearms training to give everybody more precision with their shooting. That's an admin problem I have no answer to.



Not to mention that not everyone CAN be a "good shot", regardless of training.
Isn't that why the army dropped the .45?

<Stand Tall.  Speak the Truth.  Never Surrender.>

I thought it was mostly a push to standardize with the rest of NATO at the time.
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oldranger53

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Re: A piece I wrote for 'The Tactical Hermit'
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2016, 05:19:06 AM »
Could be, but I sure have heard a lot of guys defending the switch by offering up "qualifying" as justification.

Statements like..."...after switching to the Beretta, percentages of qualified personnel skyrocketed..." cause me to think that marksmanship was primary.

As always, I could be wrong.

One reason I'm seldom serious on forums is precisely that.  I don't know it all. 

One thing I'm quite sure of though, that it wasn't because those in power wanted the troops to have more power in their hands.  That much is certain.

<Stand Tall.  Speak the Truth.  Never Surrender.>

Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.

Taurian

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Re: A piece I wrote for 'The Tactical Hermit'
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2016, 05:23:29 AM »




<snip>

Another problem is that many, perhaps most departments will balk at changing or increasing firearms training to give everybody more precision with their shooting. That's an admin problem I have no answer to.



Not to mention that not everyone CAN be a "good shot", regardless of training.
Isn't that why the army dropped the .45?

<Stand Tall.  Speak the Truth.  Never Surrender.>


Actually, it was more about politics. For whatever reason, there was a move to have a standardized pistol that would use the standardized 9mm NATO cartridge. Remember that the original M1911 was chambered in 9mm, as was the first Lightweight Commander that was intended for Officers. The Beretta was already in use by the military and police forces in other countries so it would have been a natural selection if it passed U.S. military trials, which it did over the Sig Sauer P226.  In reality, it only meant that troopers could miss their target with more rounds, and if they did happen to hit their target, it would be with less effectiveness than with the .45 ACP round.  In the end, it all has to do with money.

Even if the M1911 had undergone updates, like sights and chambered for 9mm, I don't think that it would have been accepted due to its single-stack capacity. The drive was for more capacity and smaller, less effective ammunition (think M16) [/snarkness]
What most 21st Century Americans simply do not grasp is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights were not written to to give rights to the citizens of our then-new nation, but was instead written to tightly constrain the federal government.

oldranger53

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Re: A piece I wrote for 'The Tactical Hermit'
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2016, 05:27:07 AM »






<snip>

Another problem is that many, perhaps most departments will balk at changing or increasing firearms training to give everybody more precision with their shooting. That's an admin problem I have no answer to.



Not to mention that not everyone CAN be a "good shot", regardless of training.
Isn't that why the army dropped the .45?

<Stand Tall.  Speak the Truth.  Never Surrender.>




<snip>

In the end, it all has to do with money.

As is always the case.

"If something doesn't make sense, there's a buck in it."

<Stand Tall.  Speak the Truth.  Never Surrender.>

Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.

Taurian

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Re: A piece I wrote for 'The Tactical Hermit'
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2016, 05:47:03 AM »
I guess that Captain Pope has been reading comments about his article. He has come out with this post in response to  those who think that he is anti-2A:

What the Hell is an Oath Keeper?: http://www.ammoland.com/2016/08/what-the-hell-is-an-oath-keeper/?utm_source=Ammoland+Subscribers&utm_campaign=75093b7288-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_6f6fac3eaa-75093b7288-20763529#axzz4GvuB4bQ4
What most 21st Century Americans simply do not grasp is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights were not written to to give rights to the citizens of our then-new nation, but was instead written to tightly constrain the federal government.

oldranger53

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Re: A piece I wrote for 'The Tactical Hermit'
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2016, 06:17:40 AM »
I joined Oath Keepers last month.  Glad I did, BTW.

<Stand Tall.  Speak the Truth.  Never Surrender.>

Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.