Author Topic: Stopping Power?  (Read 3398 times)

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M1911A1

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Stopping Power?
« on: July 25, 2016, 10:43:39 PM »
I've posted another blog article, this time on "Relative Stopping Power," what it is, and why it's important.
You will find it at: http://guntoters.com/blog/2016/07/26/relative-stopping-power/

Please let me know whether or not you find it useful.
Steve,
retired leathersmith and practical shooter


"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."

pop pop

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Re: Stopping Power?
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2016, 07:05:58 AM »
Very good article Steve. I think we are living in the times that Cooper forcasted, due to the improvement of ammo in the past 10 years. He said bullets, during the earlier time, could be improved as mush as 15 %. I believer ammo has become more effective, for sure in the mid range calibers(38spl/9MM).

I have also read Evan Marshall/Ed Sanow books which almost confirms Hatcher's earlier findings. You know their methods were criticized also.

Thank for posting the fruits of your labors and the findings of forward thinkers like Cooper and Hatcher.  You know, seems to me that people who never think ahead are never criticized, are they?

Taurian

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Re: Stopping Power?
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2016, 07:43:32 AM »
Excellent article, Steve! And, yes, I did find it useful.
The fact that the GOVERNMENT would even consider removing the natural right to bear arms is the very reason why the 2nd Amendment was written.

CR Williams

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Re: Stopping Power?
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2016, 11:08:10 AM »
The Thompson-LeGarde tests were 1) not scientific and 2) rigged to give the upper crust what they wanted. And they're so way past current as to be rather useless besides. It's well past time to drop them as a consideration for ammunition effectiveness.

I don't think Hatcher scale takes modern ammunition designs into account, either.
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M1911A1

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Re: Stopping Power?
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2016, 01:31:36 PM »
The Thompson-LeGarde tests were 1) not scientific and 2) rigged to give the upper crust what they wanted. And they're so way past current as to be rather useless besides. It's well past time to drop them as a consideration for ammunition effectiveness.

I don't think Hatcher scale takes modern ammunition designs into account, either.

It's all we've got. The more modern attempts (e.g., TKO) have even more-serious flaws, I think.
At least the 1904 tests used real meat and bone, not merely gelatin and theorizing.
I'll be willing to move on when someone else uses real meat and bone again.

I think that Cooper was right, about the (approximately) 15% improvement, with modern bullet design.

Every researcher has an agenda, and it's very hard to "tune-out" the bias when one reads the results.
Thompson and LaGarde may indeed have been biasing their observations because they already believed that big, heavy, relatively slow bullets did a better job of man-stopping. But they had a pretty good reason for that agenda: Recent real-world performance on Philippinos and Amerinds.
Steve,
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"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."

Taurian

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Re: Stopping Power?
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2016, 01:36:19 PM »
Everything is useful - even when it's not.

PTNA (Personal Thermo-Nuclear Ammunition) - one shot, one stop - always.  The fallout from which can be debated.
The fact that the GOVERNMENT would even consider removing the natural right to bear arms is the very reason why the 2nd Amendment was written.

oldranger53

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Re: Stopping Power?
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2016, 08:01:21 PM »
As always, we like what we like, and we ALL can site reference works that tend to justify our likes.

Caliber, to me, is like picking a religious denomination to belong to.

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M1911A1

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Re: Stopping Power?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2016, 08:08:51 PM »
...And I am a devout worshipper at the shrine of John Moses Browning.

I used to belong to the .45 ACP synod, but I recently have had to revise my approach to religion.
I have converted, along with my wife, to the .380 ACP chapel.
Steve,
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"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."

Taurian

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Re: Stopping Power?
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2016, 09:47:22 PM »
230-grain has continued its reign up to this point. Hopefully, it will reign for a while to come.
The fact that the GOVERNMENT would even consider removing the natural right to bear arms is the very reason why the 2nd Amendment was written.

CR Williams

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Re: Stopping Power?
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2016, 05:13:40 AM »
The Thompson-LeGarde tests were 1) not scientific and 2) rigged to give the upper crust what they wanted. And they're so way past current as to be rather useless besides. It's well past time to drop them as a consideration for ammunition effectiveness.

I don't think Hatcher scale takes modern ammunition designs into account, either.
Thompson and LaGarde may indeed have been biasing their observations because they already believed that big, heavy, relatively slow bullets did a better job of man-stopping. But they had a pretty good reason for that agenda: Recent real-world performance on Philippinos and Amerinds.

Thompson and LaGarde weren't the ones with the bias. Their superiors were the ones with the bias.

And really, Steve--shooting corpses hanging in the air and measuring how far they swung, among other things like shooting cattle multiple times to get an idea of one-shot effectiveness (after which some of them still had to be put down with a hammer to the head), is the best we've got?

FBI protocols compared with real-world results has to be better than that.
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M1911A1

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Re: Stopping Power?
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2016, 12:14:49 PM »
Aboriginal savage that I am (with apologies to Arthur), I want tests on real meat.
The FBI is a bunch of gelatin-eating wusses. Their boss wore a dress.

Shooting corpses and measuring their "swing" equates to the ballistic pendulum of their time.
It was all they had. They were working with a very meager toolbox.

And yet, even from way back in 1904, their results still bear validity and usefulness.
Socrates and Plato lived an awfully long time ago, and yet their thoughts are still quite valid today.
Steve,
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"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."

Taurian

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Re: Stopping Power?
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2016, 01:51:01 PM »
If you want to view "Stopping Power" this video ends all arguments. Multiple, precision shots at a very fast rate!

Watch the full video of the GAU-22 gun pod firing an 80-round burst for the first time

https://gfycat.com/FlickeringWeeAyeaye
The fact that the GOVERNMENT would even consider removing the natural right to bear arms is the very reason why the 2nd Amendment was written.

M1911A1

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Re: Stopping Power?
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2016, 04:20:39 PM »
That looks terribly un-ęrodynamic, just hanging out there in the, um, breeze.
Couldn't they have at least built it into the plane?

Um, is 80 rounds all it's got?
What does the pilot do then?

(If he's a Saudi, he probably ejects... You know that story, right?)
Steve,
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"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."

CR Williams

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Re: Stopping Power?
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2016, 05:12:42 AM »
Aboriginal savage that I am (with apologies to Arthur), I want tests on real meat.
The FBI is a bunch of gelatin-eating wusses. Their boss wore a dress.

Shooting corpses and measuring their "swing" equates to the ballistic pendulum of their time.
It was all they had. They were working with a very meager toolbox.

And yet, even from way back in 1904, their results still bear validity and usefulness.
Socrates and Plato lived an awfully long time ago, and yet their thoughts are still quite valid today.

The FBI testing protocols were established post-guy-wearing-dress.

There's not equivalency between philosophy and ballistics so the argument about that is a bit weak.

Gelatin is meat--or used to be. Ballistic gelatin may be simulated meat but it's equivalent to flesh without bone. And if you want you can cast it around bone. Run in comparison to actual shootings it can provide more consistency and repeat-ability between tests than anything Thompson and LeGarde did.
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Taurian

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Re: Stopping Power?
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2016, 07:16:02 AM »
Ballistic gelatin; however, is not compatible with any barbecue sauce that I know of.   ;D
The fact that the GOVERNMENT would even consider removing the natural right to bear arms is the very reason why the 2nd Amendment was written.

M1911A1

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Re: Stopping Power?
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2016, 12:51:36 PM »
Sorry, Richard, but I stand by the last two paragraphs of my most recent post here.

The swinging corpse was merely the ballistic pendulum of its time, and old does not necessarily equate to out-of-date. QED

We're gonna hafta agree to disagree.

...And I prefer my ballistic gelatin cherry flavored.
Steve,
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"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."

Taurian

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Re: Stopping Power?
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2016, 01:45:50 PM »
It would seem that a new study would be in order, considering the increase in shootings within the last, let's say, eight years!

"...and old does not necessarily equate to out-of-date." - M1911A1

I can relate to that equation!
The fact that the GOVERNMENT would even consider removing the natural right to bear arms is the very reason why the 2nd Amendment was written.

NorCalChuck

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Re: Stopping Power?
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2016, 04:05:07 PM »
Well what I want to know is where did those 80 rounds go after they went through the paper target?
Looks like an 8 inch dinner plate is the group size?
Also what happens to that grouping when the actual target is behind you say 200 to maybe 400 feet away?
Of course if James Bond is flying we don't have to worry about that part.
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Re: Stopping Power?
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2016, 05:54:10 PM »




<snip>


Socrates and Plato lived an awfully long time ago, and yet their thoughts are still quite valid today.


So true!
The "Socratic Paradox" is alive and well on planet Earth!  A cursory look around will verify that statement.

Moreover,  if one is to read what's known as the "Parable of the Cave" it's nearly impossible to ignore the stark parallels between it, and the way governments operate today!
If memory serves, it can be found in "The Republic", Book IV.  I think, anyway. 

I think, therefore I am!  No wait!  That was somebody else. 


<Stand Tall.  Speak the Truth.  Never Surrender.>

Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight, and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be.  One hundred percent and then some.

M1911A1

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Re: Stopping Power?
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2016, 06:05:00 PM »
...I think, therefore I am!  No wait!  That was somebody else.

It's "I drink, therefore I am," and it was my father who said it. Often.  ::)
Steve,
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"Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."